Another MET1 on the forum - NO problems

[Mr_BT]

Yesterday I received brand new CJ MET1 and started experiencing this particular distortion/popping/artifact.
It happens whenever there is a vibration. Even the smallest amount of vibrations can induce this somewhat vile popping sound out of FL channel. Gently tapping the unit with finger or lower notes can induce this popping, unpleasant effect.
At first I thought it's within burn-in process. However a day later it became more pronounced.
Please check videos I made so you can have a better idea. Being new to the whole TUBE thing I had no idea about MICROPHONICS effect until today after doing some research but it doesn't look like that's it.

Trouble shooting I did:
- swapped tubes
- swapped cables
- swapped amps + speakers
none of above helped and it always followed FL channel on MET1 unit.

Please advise

links to videos:

http://youtu.be/JCre9rbXB6g
http://youtu.be/wmHazjIFUGU

[admin]

Sorry to hear that you are having trouble with the MET1 which I hear is a great unit. I don't think this is microphonics as those are usually very subtle changes in sound. This may be a connection error. Perhaps one of the contact/solder points are loose. As it is seems very sensitive to touch, you can try taking the cover off and with an INSULATED glove (you never want to touch a live wire with bare hands) you can VERY gently tap on the boards to see if you could potentially narrow down the circuit/area that is having the trouble. You can potentially narrow it down to the individual component that may be causing the problem.

It almost sounds like static electricity but I presume that everything is grounded properly? You may want to test this by grounding the chassis manually (both preamp and amp) and seeing if there is any change.

When you say that you tried it with other speakers, do you mean you Martin Logan's? I am also a martin logan owner and electrostats are kind of unusual in that they have their own amplifiers built in. You may want to try them with traditional passive speakers (cone/woofer) if you have some lying around. I know my speakers are prone to a little popping at startup and are very sensitive to any electrical current changes.

Let us know how it goes. You have a great preamp there, we'll get it up and running correctly!

[Mr_BT]

Thanks Mr. Admin

It's indeed a great unit. Even after first few hours of burning-in it showed significant progression in every possible aspect of sound quality over my previous m-channel preamp (Marantz AV8003).

For me it also sounds like cold solder joint somewhere on the board, however the preamp is brand new and I decided to start addressing this problem in proper order by calling CJ and later the dealer who sold me the unit.
Problem is being solved as we speak. Worse case scenario the MET1 will be swapped for a new unit. Worst case scenario is me with multimeter and soldering iron
The only problem, I don't feel like plugging back my old preamp to the system and "suffer"....

As of ML being passive and active, my center is ML Stage and this one has no internal amplification and it didn't make any difference than my ML Summit with internal amp on sub.

It doesn't sound like a grounding issue......but I'll try grounding chassis of preamp and amp and we'll see....

P.S. I loved dealing with Martin Logan service/support and it seams like Conrad Johnson support is also great.

[admin]

I think probably the safest and easiest thing to do is to get the unit replaced/fixed by the dealer. It will delay your enjoyment of the unit but really it should work without flaws right out of the box. Maybe it got damaged during shipping or something unpredictable happened.

Martin Logan does have excellent service but I think you will find that Conrad Johnson is even superior. I posted a story about my dealing with Conrad Johnson when I had a tube problem with my PV12 in the Troubleshooting section of this site. They really are excellent. Ed at CJ is the man to talk to. Very nice guy and knowledgeable.

Well, let us know how it turns out. Happy Holidays.

[Mr_BT]

I'm working things out with the dealer. Most likely preamp will be replaced with a new one.
As of now I'm enjoying preamp but only with 5 channels. I had to forget about using FL out. For now I have to live without subs. No problem.

[Mr_BT]

Just got the unit replaced (delivered in person by dealer - kudos to Steve from highperformancestereo). The old problems are gone now but new and luckily much smaller issues arisen. I believe, I have one microphonic tube, which sound like this faint ringing while playing some notes. The other problem is hissing noise from a channel associated with the second problematic tube. Yes, I isolated the problem to the tubes by swapping them around and found two tubes being problematic. This whole tube thing is completely new to me and I have no idea how to cope with it? Are microphonics and hissing common problems? How costly is getting new tubes?

[Ray]

CJ are very good at replacing defective tubes, I've gotten replacements for both microphonics, and noise. Whether in warranty, or, as purchased sets, the prices are reasonable from CJ. (at least they were the last I checked, 6 months ago or so)
If I'm not mistaken the MET1 uses M8080s right? I think thetubestore.com sells replacements as I'm sure others do as well.

[jeffreybehr]

Just got the unit replaced (delivered in person by dealer - kudos to Steve from highperformancestereo). The old problems are gone now but new and luckily much smaller issues arisen. I believe, I have one microphonic tube, which sound like this faint ringing while playing some notes. The other problem is hissing noise from a channel associated with the second problematic tube. Yes, I isolated the problem to the tubes by swapping them around and found two tubes being problematic. This whole tube thing is completely new to me and I have no idea how to cope with it? Are microphonics and hissing common problems? How costly is getting new tubes?

Since the unit is still under warranty and your dealer likely will be returning your first (defective) unit, ask him to pull the tubes from that so that you can find 2 good ones. Then he can include the 2 bad ones with the 1st unit. It's unfortunate that you've had problems with 2 new units, but you surely should NOT have to pay for new tubes to replace defective tubes.

FWIW, I've had NO problems with my MET1 since I've had it (April, 2006), even with all the improvements to which I've subjected it.

C-j doesn't put this in the owner's manual, but here's the tube/channel map. Hope this makes sense.
...............Rear of preamp...................
............Cntr.................SW...............
.....LF..........RF..........LR..........RR......
...................Faceplate.......................

Soon after I received my MET1, I bought a BUNCH of 6C4 tubes, the American 'equivalent' of the British M8080. They were quite inexpensive...between $1 and $2 each...but most were highly microfonic and I tossed them. I kept maybe 10 6C4s and use them in the surround and SW channels so as NOT to consume those yummy M8080s with low-priority signals. The heavy-duty version of the 6C4 is the 6135, and I have a few of those. Personally, I'd avoid tubes that are labeled 6C4 AND 6135, as I suspect they're merely (probably microfonic) 6C4s. Here...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-SYLVANIA-GOLD ... 19d7f08fbb
...is an example of the 6135 you might look for. I saw no inexpensive 6C4s on eBay just now...but you didn't want them anyway.

[admin]

Just got the unit replaced (delivered in person by dealer - kudos to Steve from highperformancestereo). The old problems are gone now but new and luckily much smaller issues arisen. I believe, I have one microphonic tube, which sound like this faint ringing while playing some notes. The other problem is hissing noise from a channel associated with the second problematic tube. Yes, I isolated the problem to the tubes by swapping them around and found two tubes being problematic. This whole tube thing is completely new to me and I have no idea how to cope with it? Are microphonics and hissing common problems? How costly is getting new tubes?

Sorry to hear about all your troubles. Don't give up, once you get this baby working perfectly you won't be disappointed! I agree with the others, since it's brand new I would ask the dealer to either get new tubes or try to switch the tubes with the other unit so that you can have a complete and flawless set in your machine. Let us know what happens.

[Mr_BT]

Thank You all for answers,

jeffreybehr:

The tube layout info you provided above is very helpful, as I was only able to find out where fronts, rears and SW C pairs are without knowing which is L or R.

The dealer, who came to my house only replaced the unit and just installed "old" tubes in new MET1. Just like he didn't want to affect new packaging of included accessories (tubes, etc.). Weird, as I think of it now.....
Obviously being completely new to tubes I did't know what to listen for to determine potential problems. Especially when dealing with defective unit turned my attention to other problem. But now when sitting relaxed on my coach and listening to favorite recordings and hearing hissing and ringing it's just annoying and I hope just short term problem.

Now the best part:
Dealer want to charge me for faulty tube replacement. At the moment he is trying to get me a discount form CJ........pretty sad...
I'll probably be contacting CJ directly in a couple of days and ask if such behavior is a common CJ dealer practice

[admin]

Thank You all for answers,

jeffreybehr:

The tube layout info you provided above is very helpful, as I was only able to find out where fronts, rears and SW C pairs are without knowing which is L or R.

The dealer, who came to my house only replaced the unit and just installed "old" tubes in new MET1. Just like he didn't want to affect new packaging of included accessories (tubes, etc.). Weird, as I think of it now.....
Obviously being completely new to tubes I did't know what to listen for to determine potential problems. Especially when dealing with defective unit turned my attention to other problem. But now when sitting relaxed on my coach and listening to favorite recordings and hearing hissing and ringing it's just annoying and I hope just short term problem.

Now the best part:
Dealer want to charge me for faulty tube replacement. At the moment he is trying to get me a discount form CJ........pretty sad...
I'll probably be contacting CJ directly in a couple of days and ask if such behavior is a common CJ dealer practice

I think trying to charge you for faulty tubes for a brand new unit is ridiculous. I would expect that the unit be 100% fully operational without any problems if purchased new. CJ I believe has a 3 year warranty on new machines from authorized dealers, the tubes may be less but I think it's at least 6 months. I would probably urge the dealer to replace the tubes (at no cost to you). If not I would even consider returning the unit for a full refund and taking your business elsewhere. There are many authorized CJ dealers, I can give you some names here in New England that I have dealt with (who also do deliveries, they are located in NH and MA), although dealing with local guys are usually easier (not sure where you are located).

Let us know how this pans out and if the dealer continues to give you trouble I would let CJ know that he may not be representing their products in good light. I think hardware often gets damaged with shipping or have other problems, but there is no explanation why you shouldn't get a fully working replacement unit if bought new.

[Ray]

Thank You all for answers,

jeffreybehr:



Now the best part:
Dealer want to charge me for faulty tube replacement. At the moment he is trying to get me a discount form CJ........pretty sad...
I'll probably be contacting CJ directly in a couple of days and ask if such behavior is a common CJ dealer practice

WOW WOW, that is crazy. YES, give CJ a call, I'm not sure who the new service person is, but I believe it's Melissa who could direct you to the correct person.

Was your dealer person trying to make up for his "house-call" or something? In the past, CJ sent me out a replacement tube after a 2 minute call, they of course shipped it out prior to me returning the defective one. If you can hear ringing..that generally means with a microphonic tube that it's picking up sound from a speaker, i.e. similar to feedback with a real microphone and speaker.
....meaning that the tube is NASTY bad micro-phonic!

[Mr_BT]

It has been about two weeks and still have no reply from dealer. He keeps ignoring my microphonic and hissing tubes problem.

About a week ago I emailed CJ customer service and they also ignored me completely.....(I even CC Lew Johnson)

As of now I have two microphonic tubes and one hissing. It's some kind of progress comparing to a week ago when I had just one microphonic tube.

It looks like process of curing myself from tube gear and from the particular tube-gear-maker-brand-name has begun.

In the mean time I purchased some tubes from ebay advertised as "No leaks, shorts or microphonics " and.... OMG these things has horrible microphonics. However it's different kind of artifact than original Mullard m8080. With Mullards I hear high freq ringing especially while piano playing. With this el-cheapo GE tubes I don't hear any ringing but if I pause CD player there is something like 1 second long echo in mid-freq region. If I clap my hands I hear "echo".

[admin]

Wow, that is terrible! I would give CJ a call on the telephone, I don't know why they would ignore you. When I had called about an issue with my preamp I got to talk with somebody that very minute (Ed, who unfortunately is no longer there). Also, the fact that the dealer is not responding is terrible as well. When buying high end equipment such as this it should be A+ customer service, not much excuse for this kind of thing. I would maybe give a little threat to the dealer that if he doesn't respond you are going to show up at the shop with your unit for a full refund. As for CJ, I would give them a call on the telephone. I don't always trust emails as sometimes somebody could have accidentally deleted it or maybe it ended up in a spam folder by accident (I have had email come in and I found them in my spam folder weeks later). Not trying to cover up for CJ but so unusual as their customer service in my experience has been awesome.

[jeffreybehr]

I wrote Lew Johnson yesterday; he replied this morning. He wrote that BT's first e-mail arrived while he was at CES. He also said that Ed's "sudden decision to retire" has them rushing to recreate another customer-service function. He's now 'on' this problem and indicates that c-j has sent 2 new tubes.

BT, pls let us know from your end what's happening.

[admin]

I wrote Lew Johnson yesterday; he replied this morning. He wrote that BT's first e-mail arrived while he was at CES. He also said that Ed's "sudden decision to retire" has them rushing to recreate another customer-service function. He's now 'on' this problem and indicates that c-j has sent 2 new tubes.

BT, pls let us know from your end what's happening.

This is the kind of support I expect from Conrad Johnson!

Mr_BT, keep us informed on your progress.

[Mr_BT]

Thank You jeffreybehr for you intervention. I kinda have a feeling it wouldn't go anywhere without your help.

Thank You admin for your support.

Indeed, Lew replied to my email the day Jeffrey said he would. Lew explained me a couple of important facts related to purchase of MET1 from HighPerformanceStereo. It turned out that:

"......... I wrongfully assumed, that buying brand new equipment from High Performance Stereo, who claims to be authorized CJ dealer, grants full factory warranty automatically. Of course I would have never guessed it. Obviously, dealer never shared any info in regards to the history of unit. If I had known this before I would have purchased MET1 from Spearit Sound instead. Unless it's the same story with them......."

Long story short, I purchased "old stock" MET1 (obviously) that:
".....Hopefully your dealer, High Performance Stereo, has explained to you that the MET1 in question is old stock, purchased from a now closed distributor, not directly from us. For export product such as this, warranty is provided by the distributor (and our prices are to the distributor are set accordingly), so there is no factory warranty on this product......."

CJ also offered an option to purchase factory warranty (again: brand new in box from authorized dealer) for $375.


Here, CJ took care of a tubes problem: (which supposed to be taken care by my lovely dealer):

".....Note that the warranty does NOT cover tubes - we are sending you a couple of replacements as a courtesy since the problems showed up so soon. The fact that the warranty does not normally cover tubes is no doubt why the dealer expected to be charged for them......"

Well..., as of now I still have a "not fully capable" preamp, with which I developed some sort of love/hate relationship. Love, because it sounds fantastic!!! Hate, because it's ringing and hissing......
I shouldn't be complaining because at least it's not popping and cracking as the original unit had.

New tubes hasn't arrived yet......

[jeffreybehr]

BT, Lew indicated that reading this thread did fill in a few questions he had, but I'm pretty sure he would have taken care of you anyway, but perhaps not as quickly had I not e-mailed him. The c-j folk truely are NICE people.

After you get your new tubes and are satisfied that the 6 good ones are indeed good, I suggest you find some 6135s or 6C4s that are good enough to be used in the surround and SW channels. That way, the halfdozen yummy-sounding M8080s you have will last twice as long.

[admin]

Nice to hear that CJ is aware of this forum site. I guess it's a good way of keeping a pulse on their target audience. Very cool.

Mr_BT, let us know how everything turns out. I'm sure all your troubles will be nicely rewarded with a great sounding audio system!

[Mr_BT]

Just received two m8080 from CJ!!!!
Haven't had a chance to check them yet.

I don't think I'll be buying warranty from CJ. It's solid piece of gear and I belive once sorted should last long time.

Jeffrey:
I followed your sugestion about buying a bunch of 6135 and I have a couple of Sylvania comming. We'll se how they behave Previous GE 6c4's were terrible.
Also found your post on audiogon about Watford and it looks like it's they have original m8080 for 15GBP. Tubeworld also carries pairs of m8080 for $80. I still don't know how much CJ charge for them?

Thanks again for your help