CAV45 with Harbeth C7?

From tubes to solid state.
Post Reply
Smrex13
Regular
Regular
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:51 pm

CAV45 with Harbeth C7?

Post by Smrex13 »

Greetings from Oregon,

I'm very intrigued by the new CAV 45. I have an analog-only system with a VPI Prime, Manley Chinook Phono Stage and Harbeth C7es3 speakers. My current amplification is a Van Alstine Fet Valve CF pre with a Van Alstine 600R amp (300 wpc). I know the sound of the Harbeths and the Chinook quite well, and they have the smooth yet engaging musical sound I enjoy. However, the ap/preamp combo, while quite detailed and lifelike, is too forward sounding. It has a front row perspective that is fatiguing.

So, I'm seriously considering downsizing to an integrated. I don't listen loud, with peaks below 80db, and I generally listen to jazz, vocals, guitar, although some Classic Rock slips in at times. The Harbeths are 86 db but have a friendly impedance curve. Do you CJ vets have an opinion on how the pairing would work out?

Thanks for any thoughts, and happy holidays to all!

Scott
User avatar
admin
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 4565
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:50 pm
Location: New Hampshire, USA
Contact:

Re: CAV45 with Harbeth C7?

Post by admin »

Hi Scott,

First let me welcome you to the site, it's great to have you with us. Sounds like you have a really nice setup but I can see the desire to downsize and simply the system. The CAV45 would obviously help accomplish this goal. I have no doubt that the the CAV45 will sound very nice but the wattage is cutting it close at 45 wpc vs 300 on the Van Alstine. I have inefficient speakers myself (magnepan 20.1's) which are rated even slightly lower at 85 db. In all honesty what I really think it comes down to is how loud you need them to play. If you are not going to be playing rock music at very high levels you should be completely fine with 45 wpc (and you may be fine even with that type of playing). Harbeth's recommendation for the C7es3 is "over 25 wpc" so you have plenty of headroom. I have heard similar speakers powered by 10 wpc (and even less) sound absolutely amazing with jazz, stringed instruments, etc. Unless you are planning very loud listening I would always recommend investing in "quality watts, not quantity watts."

If you have a chance to audition the CAV45 of course that would be the best (and safest) course of action. It's a beautiful design coming from one of the top audio manufactures in the world. I would be surprised if it does not meet your expectations.
-admin
Home Theater in Member Gallery
Main stereo: ART Amplifier and ET7s2. 2nd stereo: PV-14L and MV-55. Previously Owned: PF2 preamp, Evolution 2000 Amp, PV-12AL preamp, D/A-2b Vacuum-Tube Digital Processor.
Smrex13
Regular
Regular
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:51 pm

Re: CAV45 with Harbeth C7?

Post by Smrex13 »

Thank you for the welcome and the information. I certainly don't need the 300 watts, but I got a good deal on it at the time. It's a fine amp, and in larger room with full range speakers I think it would be impressive. However, in the more intimate setting of my smaller room (13x15 ft) it doesn't provide the presence that I'd like. I love the sound of EL34s, so the CAV45 was a natural choice. I assume the alternate would be the Classic 60 with a Classic 2 preamp. But that's a bit more cost and complexity, both of which I'd like to avoid. I will look for an opportunity to demo the CAV45.

Thanks again,
Scott
Big Dog RJ
Ultimate
Ultimate
Posts: 2339
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:30 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: CAV45 with Harbeth C7?

Post by Big Dog RJ »

Jolly greetings for the season mates!

Was a bit held up at the work place, crazy busy times during X'mas eve, been flat out since last Monday! Hopefully two days off will allow me to revive and reset into some wonderful music.

Speaking of wonderful music, that's exactly what the CAV45 is capable of. And as Admin rightly proclaimed, is designed and made by one of the top audio companies in the world, no doubt!

I actually had the Classic 60SE with the ACT2 previously driving a pair of top line Quads ESL-2905. I had this system for 6 years, and thought of continuing to keep it, untill techinicalp probelmes started to arise, especially with the Quads. Although this was by far the most relaxing and musical sounding system I had ever owned (having owned several top line gear from Infinity Systems and Manley Labs), there were some faults in the reproduction of naturalness, linearity/ accurate timbre, more so to deal with live impact and realism.

Therefore, compared to what I have now, which is actually a down-grade in terms of price- but a huge upgrade in sonic performance, the CAV45 does a remarkable job! Driving a pair of Martin Logan Ethos, I guess it's all do to with that amplifier to impedence matching, plus the sensitivity level. The Ethos rated at 92dB with two bass drivers, one active with a 200 Watt class D amplifier on board along with a passive bass driver, with DSP and powered force woofers, the integration with the stat panel is marvellous! There is virtually no mis-integration like the good old days of ML hybrids.

So keeping this in mind, all the CAV45 has to do is just focus that wonderful EL34 musicality onto the panels and look after the frequency specs from 23kHz to 375Hz, after which the active bass takes over. Another important factor of the CAV45 is that the linestage/pre-amplifier is eliminated altogether, leaving a more cleaner signal path without having to deal with line-stage interactions. I also noticed that because of this design feature, the gain is not as high compared to an active linestage, hence suiting speaker systems with slightly higher efficiency/sensitivity ratings. But this is just specs, and therefore after careful and proper auditioning, perhaps the CAV45 can difficult loads within limits, perhaps... one would have to personally audition this.

I tried out the CAV45 with the ESL2905's first, and it drove the Quads full range effortlessly with a superb soundstage depth and resolution. Of course with the Ethos, this is taken to another level of realism, linearity and superb transparency where the Quads simply could not match.

I have heard the Harbeth's being driven with Prima Luna amplifiers, rated at just 70w/ch with KT88 tubes, sounded marvellous. I also listened to a larger pair of Harbeth's being driven with a Ayon integrated rated at 70w again but fitted with KT150 power tubes, sounded very impressive, and quite a large soundstage, very open and effortless presentation of transients.

I do sincerely think the CAV45 would be a good choice for your Harbeth's. Then again if you are looking for more solid bass control with a bit more oomph, you may want to audition the new CA150 just for comparison. With high quality gear, the CA150 is also a superb amplifier, similar to their new MF series solid state amps. The CA150 is capable of delivering around 140w and can handle difficult loads as well, plus has all that musicality factor that CJ is kown for. The only major difference that I found was the midrange magic of EL34 could not be beaten on the CAV45. The CA150 excelled in overall bass and crisper highs, with very good extension in dynamics on the Martin Logans.

At the end of the day, it also depends on personal preferences/listening habits/listening levels/room size and what you want to achieve from your favourite recordings. To me, the CAV45 delivers everything I could possibly ask for, and I tried nearly 9 different amplifiers on the Martin Logan's before finalising the purchase. Some of these other amplifiers were of far greater power and dynamics but lacked that fine resolution that the EL34's are capable of delivering. The only amplifier that I really enjoyed to the point of nearly keeping but didn't have the financial means, was the ARTsa in triode mode with EL34's- simply superb! The CAV45 can deliver close to that of the ART's resolution I must say, and after keeping the CAV45 since over two months now, I don't miss the Classic 60SE or the ACT2 one bit!

Cheers, and trust you are able to audition the CAV45 in a proper set up.
RJ
Smrex13
Regular
Regular
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:51 pm

Re: CAV45 with Harbeth C7?

Post by Smrex13 »

RJ,

Thanks for the informative reply! I just purchased a used CAV45, and it should arrive in a week or two. I found a couple of reviews online that had the C7 paired with lower powered tube amps (under 25 wpc), and there didn't seem to be any concern. So, I'll keep you all posted when the unit arrives.

Best, Scott
Big Dog RJ
Ultimate
Ultimate
Posts: 2339
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:30 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: CAV45 with Harbeth C7?

Post by Big Dog RJ »

Nice one Scott, I am sure you will be most pleasantly surprised!

Listen for areas of fine resolution, finer detail, realistic soundstage, added depth and real-scale imaging- these are truly remarkable with the CAV45.

Matched with the right speakers in relation to their impedence factor, this is pure musicality that is very hard to beat. Sure there are many superb amplifiers out there with pre-power combinations, plus other well established integrated amps that offer more dynamics but not for that price!
The CAV45 beats all of them, and believe me, I've owned and tried many on my previous Quads and now Martin Logan's.

To outperform the CAV45 based on all the superb traits it offers, you would be looking around at least 10 grand and upwards in pre-power setups. I really don't know how CJ does it for that kind of money vs performance, and they don't even use Teflon caps!
Electrolytic and CJ standard polypropylene/polystyrene are used right throughout the circuit, yet it still sounds bloody marvellous!

One of the BEST audio purchases I have ever made to date!
Your Harbeth's are going to sound like you never heard before, I can certainly guarantee that mate.
Cheers, RJ
Smrex13
Regular
Regular
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:51 pm

Re: CAV45 with Harbeth C7?

Post by Smrex13 »

Hey RJ,

Well, I received my CAV-45 a couple of days ago. I've put in a fair amount of listening time, and I concur with everything you have said about its sound quality. It really is remarkable - clear, romantic, detailed, layered, etc. I'd recommend it to anyone as long as their speakers are a good match. Which brings me to the bad news.. it doesn't really drive the Harbeths well. At lower levels it sounds glorious, but at average or slightly above average levels the sounds starts to harden and flatten out. The bass is the biggest problem due to the lossy cabinet construction of the Harbeths. As the lowest bass isn't well controlled as the volume increases, the deep bass becomes flabby. This makes the cabinets resonate quite a bit and leads to a blurring of the beautiful midrange the CJ (and Harbeths) are known for. Oh well, live and learn. Of course these results are specific to my setup in my room. Some others might find that the CAV-45 works wonders with the C7s. If they have different equipment and room acoustics. I'm going to continue to look at some other CJ options as I find the sound to be very enjoyable.

Best, Scott
Big Dog RJ
Ultimate
Ultimate
Posts: 2339
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:30 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: CAV45 with Harbeth C7?

Post by Big Dog RJ »

Hey Scot,

That's great news you received the CAV45, and it's driving the Harbeth's to a certain point...

Now several things do come to mind:
1. You need to give the CAV45 time to settle in. Initially for realistic levels (live scale performance) yes I did have to turn up the level to nearly 11.5 O'clock on the dial specially when listening to LP's. On digital playback anything between 10-10.5 was adequate.
I got mine in October, and only now (3 months after) it has fully settle in. Now with the level set around 9 - 9.5 the realism is superb! Even on LP's levels set at 9.5 is more than adequate for me and the room. Probably another fact is that 99.9% of my listening is around 10pm and after midnight. I get pin-drop silence and the sound is just marvellous.

2. Judging from the specs of the C7: FR 45Hz - 20k(+- 3dB)/ Impedance 6 ohms (easy to drive)/ Sensitivity 86dB/1w/1m (this is probably the only area of concern but is more to deal with the size of room and listening levels.

3. Judging from the specs of the Quads that I was using before: ESL2905 FR 32Hz - 21kHz/ "Reactive" Impedance curve from 4 - 20 ohms / Sensitivity 86/87dB at 1m.

4. With the specs of the these big Quads, the CAV45 drove it effortlessly! Mind you the impedance curves of stats are "reactive loads" and place a lot of strain on amplifiers, unless they were of high current designs. Therefore, wattage is not an issue and Quads can certainly go loud but now as loud or dynamic as Martin Logan's or dynamic driver types. Of course when it came to ultimate dynamics, the Classic 60SE or the MV60SE performed much better having KT120's. The preamp I was using was the ACT2, and the sound was great but with the CAV45 I certainly did not miss the pre-power combination, and now with the ML Ethos, I would probably never require a pre-power config, since the CAV45 provides everything I look for in recorded music.

5. Unless- I had a very large room and wanted to pump out every square inch of this room, then perhaps a more powerful amp would suit better. I do realise that the Ethos have a sensitivity rating of 92dB and come with active bass with 200w on board. Hence the CAV45 is just "cruising" along...

6. Which leads to point 6- I actually heard the same Harbeth's driven with a Prima Luna integrated amp, very similar drive factor to the CAV45 and sounded great. That's about as far as the quality of PL goes, which is quite good. When it comes to CJ, their quality of amplification is far more superior to PL, and they have been around for decades.

I still feel your CAV45 can drive the C7's very well, unless you want higher volumes and your room is fairly large. I would assume that since you have the C7's, which are not "big" speakers, that you must have either a small to average room, therefore 45w of tube power should be more than adequate, unless this was a full range stat or ribbon design like Apogee's or Maggies for that matter.

Perhaps, your previous VA of 300w solid state was driving the C7's to their full potential, I wouldn't know. The only thing I do know for sure is that the CAV45 can and did drive the Quads very well, and drove the C7's at the dealers (same dealer I bought my ML's from) when I took my CAV45 there for a test run on the Ethos to make 100% sure of the match up & synergy. The room was not large, somewhat average, similar to what my system is placed in (14ft W x 25ft L x 8ft H); and the sound levels were more than fine.

Perhaps the ML Ethos is not a good comparison due to active bass amplifiers on board and high sensitivity but with Quads and the C7, the CAV45 had no strain whatsoever in driving these types of speakers within limits. Why I say within limits is because there are people who want to pump sound through the roof even through Quads, which is not what their designed for in the first place! And the other reason is the C7 is not a big speaker, and is not going to push large amounts of air into the room. Its power handling factor is rated at only 150w programme which usually means continuous without strain... Therefore, once again the CAV45 performed very well on the C7's during the demo I had, and not only the C7's, we also tried it on several other Harbeth models since the dealer was quite excited to try the new CAV45, which he also likes over the PL amp.

These are the only comparisons I am making based on my personal experiences with the CAV45 and your Harbeth's, which are the same speakers.
Therefore, I suggest allow it sometime to settle in, or I think you are wanting to pump up the volume quite a lot, hence the reason for using a 300w amp which in my opinion is "over-kill" for the C7's.

To me the C7's are very sublime, high quality transducers with smooth accurate sound, close to monitor performance speakers, and bass is very good, clean and articulate. What I found with the EL34 tube is the bass is tight and smooth and very well defined. Harding or flatting out was definitely something we did not experience at all.

Not too sure what's going on there Scott but I'm sorry if I cannot be of more help, perhaps someone else could contribute...
All the best, RJ
plurn
Super Advanced
Super Advanced
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:38 am
Location: Australia

Re: CAV45 with Harbeth C7?

Post by plurn »

Smrex13 wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:08 am ... At lower levels it sounds glorious, but at average or slightly above average levels the sounds starts to harden and flatten out. ...
Yeah this effect of "harden and flatten out" is the compression you get when driving a tube amp beyond its limits. It is the sound of the clipping of a tube amplifier. Not everyone recognises it as such, and some people must like this sound because they seems to like the sound of over driven tube amps and try to recommend this sort of set up to others. I have noticed this on another forum, particularly with harbeth speakers, where people have matched a harbeth hl5plus speakers with an obviously underpowered leben amp and like the combination and recommend it to others. The only conclusion I can draw is some people like to hear tube amps clipping and don't realise that it is clipping.

For myself I prefer to have way more watts in reserve than I need so there is never a chance of clipping.

You have reminded me of this video with Alan Shaw of Harbeth. Different speakers to yours (more demanding) and playing music much louder than your estimate of what you like to listen too, and probably in a bigger room, but I find it very interesting.

"How much amplifier power do I REALLY need?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRMR9JZ1m0s

If you are impatient - skip ahead to the conclusion at 7:20

One thing I think people often fail to realise is that if they listen to music at an average of say 75dB, they think they can get away with an amplifier that can product 75dB in their set up. The thing is that they might have peaks in the music 10dB or more above that, or they might want to occasionally turn the volume up above their usual. So in those cases you don't need an amp that can only produce 75dB in your setup - you need 85dB plus to avoid clipping. If you don't have the watts required, and you get a short peak of sound above what your amplifier can service, it is not just that the peak sounds bad, but you have drawn a lot of the power reserves from your amplifier, and it does not recover instantly, so there is not much left to service the sound following the peak. So you have not just hurt the instantaneous peak sound but also the milliseconds or seconds following that peak.

I guess you are in the perfect position to compare a 45 watt amplifier with a 300 watt (or probably higher into the 6 Ohms of your speaker) amplifier in your set up. Overall - which sounds better in your set up to you?

You say "I don't listen loud, with peaks below 80db" and also "At lower levels it sounds glorious, but at average or slightly above average levels the sounds starts to harden and flatten out" so perhaps in your situation the CAV45 is fine? If you have peaks below 80dB I would think this is very low level (average ~70dB) so a CAV45 might be ok. You just have to restrict yourself to never turning up the volume above this low level. If it is is not sounding good at the levels you want to listen to, then I think this is not the right amplifier for your current situation.

I find this "Amplifier Power Required" calculator very handy to show how quickly power requirements can grow based on distance from the speaker, speaker sensitivity, and desired level: http://www.crownaudio.com/en/tools/calculators

As an example for my situation, if I put in 2 meters, 95 dBSPL, speaker sensitivity 84dB, zero headroom, I need 50 watts. If I change the 95 to 105 dBSPL (more realistic in my situation on rare occasions) I need 504 watts. 105 dB is not hugely louder than 95dB but the watts required is much more.
Big Dog RJ
Ultimate
Ultimate
Posts: 2339
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:30 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: CAV45 with Harbeth C7?

Post by Big Dog RJ »

That's definitely one superb analysis right there mate!

Yes agreed on the clipping part. Infact, I am a big victim to this, I even used a little 300B tube amp rated at just 8w on my big Quads at one point. Plenty of distortion and clipping but the sound was sweet! Tubes amps, unlike SS, have soft clipping, and as correctly point out, it tends to go unnoticed. SS amps have hard clipping and when they clip, they clip!

I was just wondering, if Scott may benefit from any of the larger tube amps from CJ, such as the LP monoblock series, the LP125sa or the ARTsa (which is my all time favourite!) these would definitely add more oomph factor along with that added warmth to the sound.

Another good match up for Scott's C7's, perhaps an ET3 series pre and CJ's new SS, MF2250, that should be one fantastic combination that would very easily drive the Harbeths.

All I can say is that the C7's sounded very natural, open, detailed and full bodied with the CAV45 when I listened closely. It reminded me of those good old days when I had the Proac monitors with the older CAV50. In a small and cosy room, it was a very simple and classic system with a highly musical factor that was most enjoyable to listen to. They don't make systems like these anymore for that price range...

Cheers Scott, and trust your search for the right match continues. Do let us know how it goes and what you finally decided on.
RJ
Smrex13
Regular
Regular
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:51 pm

Re: CAV45 with Harbeth C7?

Post by Smrex13 »

Thanks for the replies, Gentlemen!

I have read the Harbeth user group extensively for quite a while, and I also used a similar power calculator before purchasing the CAV-45. So, I was a bit surprised by the initial results I was getting. I have used the C7s with a 45 watt solid state amp (Croft), and there was no problem at all.

I've been experimenting this weekend, and I've found that my phono preamp is likely the main culprit. I recently added a Rogue Ares phono stage, and in addition to normal low/high/medium gain switches the gain can be further adjusted by using different tubes (it can be raised 9 or 12 db using 12at7 or 12ax7 respectively). I had put 12ax7s in there since I had a nice set of NOS tubes, but I think it was overdriving the CAV-45. I backed it off by swapping in 12at7s, and it made a huge difference. Bass tightened up, and the sound didn't flatten out at normal listening levels.

For some context, my listening room is only 15x13 feet, and it's an apartment living room which necessitates keeping neighbors happy. I sit about 6-7 feet from the speakers. Last night I listened at slightly louder than normal levels (my neighbors were out), and using a DB meter I found that the highest peaks were 85 db. So, I should be well in the operating range of the CAV-45. And I have to say the sound was stunning! I am still working on tweaking and adjusting things, but I'm off to a good start with the Harbeth/CJ pairing. I will give it several weeks to settle in before making any final decisions.

By the way, I came across a review of the CAV-45 on a Greek website (http://www.hiendnews.gr/conrad-johnson- ... er-review/). Although I don't read Greek, I can see that they gave it 4.9 out of 5 stars. The only other pieces that got a 4.9 were a $7500 SET amp and an $85,000 pair of speakers! I used Google translate for the conclusion, and the best line is "A priceless gift to those who listen to music with their hearts!"

I will keep you posted as I experiment with my setup, but I really appreciate all your input and guidance.

Best wishes,
Scott
Big Dog RJ
Ultimate
Ultimate
Posts: 2339
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:30 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: CAV45 with Harbeth C7?

Post by Big Dog RJ »

Ah! Scott, I knew something wasn't right... there you go!

I was really confused mate, thinking I've recommended a terrible amp match up, and specially when I've heard the same speakers at the dealers with the CAV45.

Yes, the phonostage will need to be tweaked with proper settings to get that overall finesses from the CAV45, once you've achieved that, you will not be disappointed. I had the same issues with my Rega phono preamp, the gain switches had to be adjusted accordingly, and all was fine.

At the dealers, there was no phono, the main source was all digital through a very high-end PS Audio Dac, and dedicated server. The output signal was quite high compared to normal digital setups I've heard (CD or SACD playback). I really don't like this sort of digital config, as for me it sounds cold and just "hi-fi" there is no warmth nor musicality or emotions in the music. Very good for demo's with tremendous dynamics and transient response- that's about it.

As I said, give the CAV45 a good 2-3 months to settle in and you will notice the differences gradually. Once settled in and the level settings will fall back to normal, with plenty of headroom to turn up if required. That sort of EL34 magic on the CAV45 is very hard to beat. Price range of around 10 grand and upwards would be better, and the CAV45 is just a fraction of that cost.

Now you've got a taste of what the ARTsa is all about, in triode mode delivering 70w instead of 140 is superb. Now CJ is offering a new Classic 120 amp with EL34's delivering 120w- basically an affordable ARTsa.

The CAV45 is one classic amplifier that CJ has built extremely well with all the high quality parts, solid power supplies, fitted with the new 6922 tube for input stage and a pair of 5965's for the phase inverter (driver) stage then paired off to a pair of EL34's operating in push pull config, producing a healthy dose of 45 watts of tube power. This is more than adequate for most speakers with realistic loads (easy to drive with fairly decent efficiency).

The elimination of a line stage altogether makes it even more clearer, and as yours speakers settle in and get used to this type of drive from the amp, you will begin to hear clearer sound, more defined and far more musical.

The CAV45 is not a night club rocker, it's not going to shake the room and drive speakers through the roof- that is not musicality. It will allow you to really relax and engage in the emotions of music for endless hours, and with the right speakers matching, it is just marvellous!

Enjoy mate, and let us know how it's sounding in a few months.
Cheers, RJ
plurn
Super Advanced
Super Advanced
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:38 am
Location: Australia

Re: CAV45 with Harbeth C7?

Post by plurn »

Glad you sorted it out Scott. Sorry for misdiagnosing the issue.

Anthony
Big Dog RJ
Ultimate
Ultimate
Posts: 2339
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:30 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: CAV45 with Harbeth C7?

Post by Big Dog RJ »

Hey Anthony,

I don't think that was a "misdiagnosis" at all mate.

In fact it is very true of tube amps, as you are aware, and the majority of tube based systems I have heard, are either under-powered or simply don't have the musicality factor (compared to CJ) mainly due to them being over-powered.

For example, when I had the Infinity RS1B's, I was trying to achieve sonic bliss with a CJ premier 11A. I always thought that the Prem 11A was capable of handling difficult loads as well as capable of driving panel-hybrid types full range. Although the Prem11A was able to handle the older Quads ESL63's pretty well, it definitely was struggling with the Infinities. I then contacted Arnie Nudell, and he clearly stated "no go!" He recommended I use the Prem11A for the panels and a SS amp for the driver towers. So I connected a CJ MF2300, via the Infinity cross over unit, and it was good to a certain extent. There seemed to be a mismatch in gain settings, plus the cross over unit was a pain in the butt to get right. Each different type of music would require adjusting.

I sold off the CJ amps, and got hold of a pair of Manley Monoblocks (which Arnie highly recommended). Delivering 400w of tube power with ease from 16 KT90's per monoblock, the Infinities just took off! BUT there was no musicality whatsoever. Just plain dynamics and a lot of oomph. These were my younger days, so I liked to turn up the volume...

However, I always liked that musicality factor in CJ were known for. A host of others, such as ARC, VTL, Manley, Melos and the like are definitely more powerful than CJ. In the sense, they have more slam factor, and huge amounts of bass, able to drive anything out there but where is the musicality, I would ask myself...

Only CJ owners would appreciate this true musicality DNA of CJ amplification, it is like no other. Having said that, the only other tube amp that did give me close to a similar musicality was the McIntosh MC275, very special sound indeed with the right speakers.

As time went along, I downsized considerably, sticking to just stereo amplification and not monoblocks as I really don't see the benefit of using mono amps in high efficiency/high sensitivity and easy to drive speaker systems. I've also used the Prem8's and Prem12's at one point in time with Quads and maggies, although soundwise was great, I just preferred a simple stereo amp for that total "synergy" in sound.

Therefore, when I state something is transparent as Harbeth's or Martin Logan's, and with the right amplification to drive these systems at just the right levels (without being over-driven) to me sounds the most musical compared to all the other mighty affairs I have owned. I have spent FAR too much on big rigs, and FAR too much on so called high-end gear just because of their price range, being capable to deliver high-end sound.
However, many of the big rigs I've owned could not deliver the level of musicality I get from the CAV45 with the Ethos or the Harbeths.
At one point I actually wanted to take the C7's home, it was that good a match with the CAV45, it had me fixated again on that level of musicality.
(as before experienced on the CAV50 with a pair of Proac monitors, Tablet something can't remember the model, awesome musical enjoyment)

Fast fwd 20 years, and I have realised that CJ's goal is to "heighten the enjoyment of recorded music" and not to blast the roof off. So, once again I find myself focused on the moderate powered amps. Maybe it's a personal thing but I find the rated power anywhere between 45 to 70w to be the most musical with the right speakers. Anything above the 100w mark to me is just sound...

I also realised through actual auditioning and careful listening, specs are hard to judge by. On paper something may seem good but certainly sounds WAY different by a far margin. For example, with my previous Quad ESL2905, rated to produce bass around 32Hz/useable to 28Hz- my foot! It could do low bass, it was rather a drumy effect and the highs were cushioned, they could not do 20kz or above. At the dealers, we tried various mics and found that the 2905's infact cannot produce the highs, they are rolled off to around 10kz or slightly above. Most of the bass was around the 40-45Hz region. And this doesn't change even with more powerful amplification. Hence, the reason why I cried when I listened to the Ethos, not even a comparison in specs to the Quads, they operate in a completely different league!

Your analysis of the amplifier factor is also very good and spot on. I would also in addition to these specs, always try to listen as well just to make sure the system has that synergy factor, after all once you take it home, it should satisfy YOUR specs, and be satisfying to your own ears (not some reviewers or so called expert, these are again only guidelines...).

Another huge discovery I made over the years, is that most specs are in fully controlled areas, either using labs, or anechoic chambers with all sorts of controlled parameters. I would just prefer to plonk the system in the living room and if it can deliver, by all means keep it! if it can't then it probably was only tested and designed in a lab not meant for real world use in people's living rooms.

The new versions of the Classic 60 have being pushed towards the 120w mark. It would certainly be interesting to see what level of musicality these new amps can offer. One thing for sure is CJ has accomplished this in the ART series but the ART is not your average amp that anyone can buy. I would compare these with the ARTsa in triode mode, since that is my reference amp to date. A small taste / sample of this can be enjoyed in the CAV45 and Classic 60SE with EL34's, delivering 50w and nothing more. Well I guess I would have to wait for quite a long time until I could possible afford an ARTsa.

Till then enjoy your CJ sound folks, after all "it just sounds right".
Cheers, RJ
Post Reply