Tube replacement Premier 12

[jimbones]

I bought a pair of P12 used. They came with the desirable SED Winged C from the original factory on Russia. The date codes are from the early 1990's. I asked the previous owner how many hours on the tubes and he couldn't answer but he suspected they had accumulated significant hours. I don't doubt as they are 30 years old. Now I did test them and they "pass" but I have FOMO that I could be getting better performance out of the amp if I replace the tubes. I spoke to CJ and they recommend the Ting Sol 6550 reissues. Has any one used them could you share your experience. Thanks. McShane suggested Sovtek's.

[AnotherJohnson]

I hope Joe, or RJ, Roberto, or Steve (or others) will answer.

My simple minded advice is that, if it sounds good, enjoy!

But I will offer that Jeff has always given me excellent advice. If I were you, I’d buy a set of the Tung Sols, and sit on them until you’re ready to use them. Tubes may be harder to come by at fair prices as world events unfold.

[admin]

AJ may be right about the tube supply. Who knows how that will play out?

You really can't go wrong with what CJ recommends. That's a sure bet. But I will say that tubes are one of those things where personal preference may come into play so choosing "something else" is not necessarily wrong.

[Joe Appierto]

I never had the Premier 12 so can't speak to it directly but I did have the 11A which I think is the stereo version of the 12. I thought the Reissue TS 6550s sounded good in that application. A lot of folks (the majority, actually) seem to prefer the TS KT120.

Both AJ and admin make excellent points regarding world events and personal preferences, respectively. Now is most likely a good time to purchase something or even a couple of different sets if you can swing it financially. Even current production isn't going to get any cheaper.

[Big Dog RJ]

With the case of Premier 12's, these amplifiers are able to accept the following tubes safely:
KT88, KT90, KT120, 6550 & its variants. When we used the Premier 12's to drive Infinity's IRS Beta's, Thiel CS7's and Apogee Full Range's, we used the SED 6550C type tubes to great affect! It was a marvelous and beautiful sound, one that was probably the best at the time in our tiny island. Everyone who visited our showrooms or our house in our personal demo rooms, would nearly always place orders for either the Premier 11A or 12's, and we sold an awful lot of them. Then we took delivery of the Premier 8A's but only sold two pairs of those, since their price points are very different.
The Prem 12's are equally powerful and can hold very steady without flinching one bit. The Prem 8A's are more suited towards notorious loads where 4 Ohms is a luxury and less than 4 Ohms is the norm, driving Infinity's and Apogee's were better with a more effortless drive with the Prem 8A's, that's the only difference. We all realized though at one point in time that the Prem 12's did sound more musical, whereas the Prem 8A's were basically more muscle.

Cheers, and I hope it all goes well. Do let us know on which tubes you decide on.
RJ

[SolderSlinger]

I personally like the TS 6550 reissue in the Premier 12 and LP140M amplifiers. I'm currently using a Sony HAPZ 1ES with HI Resolution files, an ET5, Quad ESL 2905 speakers, Cardas interconnects, and Kimber Kable 8 with bananas.

I'm not much of a tube roller. With that said up until recently I've used Gold Lion KT88, SED 6550, Svetlana 6550, Shuguang 6550, and TS KT120 tubes in both amps. While each type has their strength, I've never felt that one had a real leg up on the other. But the SED 6550 tubes have been my go to favorite.

I only recently tried the TS 6550. I got a set of 8 with an amp purchase. Due to personal bias I considered the included TS 6550 tubes as non value add. I looked down on them. When buying tubes, I would spend extra money for Gold Lion KT88, KT120, etc. thinking that the TS 6550 were a lesser tube. The TS 6550 was IMO an ugly tube, it's smaller, the runt of the family.

When I finally had a chance to try them (for free?), my opinion changed. And it was a quick change too. The TS 6550 tubes add a nice upper frequency air to the ESL 2905 speakers. I ended calling the person I bought the amps from to talk about my listening experience. He had almost the same story. He had experimented with numerous tube types and found that the TS 6550 is his preferred tube.

And just to clarify. I am not a tube roller.

[admin]

I'm not much of a tube roller. With that said up until recently I've used Gold Lion KT88, SED 6550, Svetlana 6550, Shuguang 6550, and TS KT120 tubes in both amps.

Ah, the denial stage. I remember that stage of the "hobby."

[roberto]

Hola SolderSlinger,

My advice is: choose the ones that YOU liked most, your ears are your final judges. Trust in them. Me, as an example, the ones that I am using are the Tung-Sol KT-120s. These tubes are the original CJ factory in my amp. My ears liked them since the beginning. But reading about tube rolling, the bug hit me right in my ears. The effortless power, wide stage, timbre, harmonic texture...etc...is fantastic. I am not saying that with other type of tubes you don't get this, of course you do!

The final sound is a matter of liking, is like our food, some like mayonnaise, others like catsup or garlic, or like everything...the flavour of sound...that's the question. Your ears are the one who tells you what they like, and not necessary must be my liking. We have a lot in common here, we do like the sound of Conrad Johnson, and why is this? Because Conrad Johnson sounds right! Period!.

It is ok to use any similar substitute, same pin connection, around the same power dissipation and the working voltages. The KT-120 is a better version of the 6550s, it has more power dissipation, and it's behaviour is about the same. I found a much better bass definition and control, a transparency in the midrange and a huge big stage in front of me, where all the musicians are having fun playing together...their soul is reproduced like magic...the air between the musical instruments, the size of the musical instruments, and the solos and voices are projected to the air with a tremendous realism. The percussionist is incredible with tons of dynamics and all the percussion instruments are there, where the drummer and percussionist is located at the virtual stage...

Enjoy the tunes and the fantastic musicians that are in the recordings! Catch your self tapping your feet along the rhythm of the music. This is a tip that it is telling you how right the music is being reproduced.

Happy listening!

[MattHooper]

I'm much newer to tube rolling than some of the old dogs here, but I've been having fun with my Premier 12s.

I believe my 12s originally came with (and where voiced for) GE 6550s. When after many years those died and where no longer available CJ's suggested replacement were the TS 6550s. I used those and found the essential character of the Premier 12s remained consistent.

This year I replaced the aging TS 6550s with some NOS Svetlana winged C 6550s I snapped up from a dealer (at a pretty good price). They have sounded stellar. Sometimes I think the system sounded "better than ever" but frankly I can't say for sure.

The really interesting and head-spinning moment for me was trying the Tung Sol KT120 tubes in the Premier 12s. That was easily the most radical difference I'd ever heard changing tubes. I love them and hear similar things to what others have written. In my system the KT120s first impressions are: a sense of deeper bass, though very well controlled, which "sits back" a bit more in the soundstage vs the more focused and "up front" punchy 6550 bass sound. The soundstaging and image sizes just expand to more "life sized" with the KT120s. Every time I switch back to the 6550s that's the biggest "disappointment" I have to get used to. The KT120s just melt the walls away, the 6550s produce a smaller, more focused soundstage/imaging.
The KT120s have a more lush relaxed midrange than the 6550s in my system, yet with really extended sparkly highs and seem to render even more subtle detail - especially the acoustics/reverbs in recording. Which also I think help with the "wall melting away" effect.

I've also combined that with tube rolling the smaller driver tubes, often GE NOS, and have found some combos that are just astounding in terms of producing a sensation of "life size" sound.

Of course there is no perfection, everything is a compromise. What the 6550s still do "better" is a superior sense of focus and density to voices and instruments, so a bit more realistic sense of "a trumpet right there, dense, moving air." It's more compact and forward sounding in every way and more immediately punchy sound, so there is a bit more "live instruments being played" sensation, vs the KT 120s which invite me in to a cavernous soundstage, with exquisite tonality.

I've never tried the famous Golden Lion KT88s in the Premier 12s. Maybe one day I'll play with those if they ever become available for a sane price again.

[Big Dog RJ]

The GGL's KT88's strength mainly lies in the midband. That is upper mids- mids- lower mids. The HF extension is pretty good but not as extended as the KT120's. The KT88's bass, that is upper bass- mid-bass- lower bass is well defined but not as tight as the EL34's, not as extended to the low notes as compared to 6550's and not as extended in LF reproduced by KT120's.

KT120's LF detail is fast, solid and powerful with great impact yet well balanced. The KT150 takes that thump to another level, which is great for large types of orchestral works but not necessary for more intimate settings, such as small jazz ensembles or duets.

When the KT88's are packed in a bunch and operate in UL mode push-pull config, they tend to sound fuller with a better grip/control but not as powerful compared to a bunch of KT120's operating in the same config, that's powerful! And a bank of KT150's operating in the same config is a thunderous presentation if required.

These were my findings and not based on tube rolling, rather trialling each type of amplifier:
LP125M's fitted with KT88's
LP260M fitted with 6550's
LP125M'SE fitted with KT120's (my own pair)
ART150 fitted with KT150 obviously!
ART300's with KT150's obviously!

Each of these amplifiers were superb in every way operating within each type of application, driving various kinds of speakers. Not one system was better than the other, rather quite different. The most enjoyable was with my CLX's but that's because I own them! I could very easily happily live with any of the others, especially the ART300's driving the Alsyvox Botichelli-X! Outstandingly marvellous! Probably the most powerful and dynamic by all. Huge price tag though...

Oh! I forgot to mention, that I also auditioned a custom built stereo power amp fitted with KT170's. It was an older Sonic Frontiers amp with a modded preamp driving a pair of Paradigm Persona speakers. The KT170 sounds like KT150 turned into Hulk! Massive aggression and a lot of growling... not musical to my tastes at all! Perhaps on a different brand of amp it may be more tamed but I don't think they were designed to be tamed. Extremely powerful output tubes that can blow the roof off, provided your speakers can handle it.

I'll just stick with KT120's thanks.
Cheers, RJ

[Joe Appierto]

Very nice, informative analysis that is useful to anyone looking to tube or re-tube an amp. Thanks, RJ.

[MattHooper]

Great info, thanks Big Dog RJ.

The KT120s are certainly addictive.

Just to add: I've been using a Benchmark LA4 preamp in place of my CJ Premier 16LS2 for several months (and sometimes going back and forth between them). It works beautifully with the Premier 12s - the sound is utterly grain-free, super transparent, huge soundstage (because every last molecule of reverb or acoustic is uncovered), and really dynamic. It's like a passive preamp, but with actual guts.

I was thinking maybe I could let my CJ Premier 16LS2 go - cut down on my tubed equipment. But, darn it, when I put the CJ preamp in it's too seductive - more organic, that CJ glow, more present, more body (though clarity and dynamics take a step backwards). I don't think I can let the CJ preamp go either. (Also, the Benchmarl LA4 is so low in noise I'm actually able to run my CJ preamp through one of the LA4 inputs, at unity gain, so I can actually directly switch between pre-amps using the benchmark remote, to directly compare the sound in real time).

[roberto]

Hola MattHooper,

Doing A-B comparison is difficult in the real time. You must use your long memory. Reading you, you just described the difference between both, a reason why you can't let the CJ go. I do know about the convenience with a remote control.

If the Benchmark is more quiet, SS is fantastic with the S/R. Try to change the tubes in your CJ preamp, brands like Gold Lion by Genalex you can find a very low noise tubes. The difference in the overall sound presentation of the 16LS2, your appreciation is correct.

Benchmark is a very good brand. Long time ago I did use their DACs, for what you pay and what you get, is difficult to find another brand.

Happy listening!

[MattHooper]

Hi Roberto,

Fast switching is actually known to be more sensitive for subtle sound differences. (E.g. I work in sound: if I played for you two tones back to back that were only 2 dB difference, but played them a day a part you'd never be able to reliably identify which was louder. If I played them one after the other, though, you'd be able to identify the difference).

But it's not always practical (often it isn't) so yes we have to rely on longer term memory. (Though I've been comparing tube amps here and switching between them takes a few minutes).

Thanks for the advice about tubes for the CJ Preamp. I actually have tried some tube rolling there. Though there were some gains in some areas, I tended to lose the balance and general "CJ sound" I'm used to, and so far have preferred the CJ recommended tubes (at this point Electro Harmonix 6922s).

It was actually the expense of tubes that for one thing had me looking at the Benchmark preamp. But, as I say, it's so hard to give up the CJ when it offers me something the Benchmark doesn't in some areas. (Though if I use certain driver tubes in my Premier 12s it does get back some of the CJ sound even with the Benchmark as the preamp).

I also use a Benchmark DAC2L for my digital source.

[admin]

I can get the idea that telling a small volume difference or tone differential is easier to tell apart via rapid A/B listening. However, I often will encounter things like listening fatigue which only happens maybe an hour into listening with a setup I don't particularly enjoy vs one that I can listen to for hours on end. Volume matching is also more important on rapid A/B switching than on longer sessions. Perhaps there are roles for both rapid A/B switching and longer listening auditions, probably.

I've have found longer listening sessions more fruitful than listening to the same track on two systems right after each other. I freely admit that this may be completely psychological?