Premier 3 tubes

[utnick]

Well, the premier 3 I recently bought stopped working. Turns on, no sound or click after turning on. Pretty sure it's an issue with the relay for the tubes to warm up so am going to replace that along with the capacitor and resistor in the timer circuit-more troubleshooting to follow.

Opened everything up and found an odd mix of tubes. Most are GE. Anyone have a premier 3 with the original tubes that can share what's actually in there? I'd like to stick with what's original. I have the manual but it doesn't spec preferred brand of tube.

Reached out to CJ and the cost was astronomical for a set of tubes. They were also pretty rude, expected that asking questions about a 30 year old preamp to a company that sells 20k components so no worries (would never give them business after that though).

[AnotherJohnson]

The Premier Three is now 36 years old.

There are 9 tubes. In the current market, getting good ones will probably cost upwards of $500, and closer to a grand with some reputable suppliers. I’m guessing CJ probably wanted something a bit over a grand. I’m not guessing … if you buy from them, you will get good tubes.

But that’s not where I’m going with this. CJ is a tiny company. There are only a few employees. They are busy trying to get the new flagship units that sell for $30k to $50k built and shipped. So, unlike the old days, there’s not a lot of time for chit chat.

Their policy is to NOT provide parts, except for routine tubing, so they don’t typically troubleshoot over the phone.

Jeff is a perfectionist. If you send them the unit, they will bring it back to the best possible condition if the parts are available. It will probably cost something on the order of $600 plus the tubes and other parts if the repairs needed are possible.

If you’re restoring it because it is a labor of love, and you are sentimentally attached to CJ or the unit, it might be worth the cost. If instead you’re looking for a better than average preamp, you’re better off selling it for parts and putting your money into something from the last decade. Obviously you weren’t pleased with their inability to help over the phone, so I doubt the sentimal argument is in play.

Now, if I wanted to replace the tubes, I would go to Upscale Audio’s website and buy their platinum grade without cryo treatment. On some of those tubes, they will have more than one brand to choose from. We all have our favorites.

When I buy from CJ, they’re usually using something that Jeff has found that he likes. He’s burned them in, tossed out the ones that he would not be proud to sell, and marked the rest up to recover his costs.

It’s really not reasonable to expect a company with fewer than five full timers to provide much support over the phone for a 36 year old product … even if it is disappointing that they can’t.

Best of luck with your project. You’re not likely to find honest NOS tubes from 1986, and if you could find them, the price would make CJ’s price seem reasonable.

[utnick]

Don't disagree with much of what you're saying. Expected it and was actually pretty surprised their website advertises service for components as old as mine. That's a great thing but the attitude of the lady I spoke to left a good bit to be desired, nothing to do with "being a small company that sells $xxk equipment etc." This is my first delve into anything more than a simple $100 Bluetooth speaker (and the same type of things before Bluetooth). The thing sounds great to me and I'd like to make it sound as good as possible. I can easily fix the no sound issue and would like to get some good tubes for it.

Looking to find out what originally came in there. The manual proclaims that CJ sampled a variety of tubes and used the ones they found worked best with the preamp. If I can find them, I'd like to use them but have no idea what was used-sure someone knows and is willing to share that info.

[utnick]

Maybe CJ is the best deal. It would be stupid not to shop around -based on the quoted price- if someone knows what was in there originally.

[utnick]

And, I did not ask to "chit chat" or suggest anything wrong with my amp. Simply inquired about tubes.

[AnotherJohnson]

Sounds like you talked to Jasmine.

She’s not super knowledgeable on many issues, but she can check with Jeff.

In 1986 the tubes might have been from an NOS stash that was being hoarded by Bill and Lew. Maybe Phillips or Mullard.

Check out Upscale’s tube folk lore, Kevin Deal’s “insights”, and most importantly, their inventory.

Most of us have a deep love for CJ. And few of us can play at the current flagship price points. But we still wish them success.

[AnotherJohnson]

https://upscaleaudio.com/collections/pr ... -new-stock

https://upscaleaudio.com/pages/tube-bas ... -questions

https://upscaleaudio.com/pages/test-equipment

[AnotherJohnson]

FWIW, I’m sure Jasmine is NOT helping build new products .

I would take her short responses with a grain of salt. Her most valuable role appears to be to keep Jeff from having to answer the phone.

[AnotherJohnson]

FWIW #2: A 36 year old preamp will have probably had four to ten tube changes over its lifetime, so even if someone had one and could look, it’s unlikely they’d be OEM tubes.

[utnick]

I'll take a look through the links, thank you.

Pretty happy with how the preamp sounded, really nice piece of gear. I'm not sentimental about the pre and am happy to spend some cash to get it right but not more than it's worth. Everyone has their hobby and it doesn't surprise me that there are 50k+ components out there. It did surprise me that CJ still works on the older stuff.

[admin]

FWIW, I’m sure Jasmine is NOT helping build new products .

I would take her short responses with a grain of salt. Her most valuable role appears to be to keep Jeff from having to answer the phone.

I think this is what it most likely comes down to. The people at CJ are really busy and Jeff needs to be in the back designing and working on new products and not on the phone.

That's a great thing but the attitude of the lady I spoke to left a good bit to be desired, nothing to do with "being a small company that sells $xxk equipment etc."

Not trying to make any excuses and obviously not on the phone to hear the conversation, but I wouldn't be surprised if the "service line" is really geared toward 1) People requesting information on sending their units in for repair and 2) Selling of accessories (tubes, replacement remotes, shipping boxes, etc). It really is not troubleshooting. Sounds like you called and got a quote for a new set of tubes. I'm sure you were looking for a little more "help" on the issue you are having. I'm sure I would have asked on the phone as well. I just don't think Jasmine has the technical background to field those questions, even if that was the goal of the service line. Perhaps she was short with you as she could sense the call was not going toward what she is designated to do,.. ie helping customers with starting a service request or a parts sale. Or perhaps she was having a bad day? Or just a misunderstanding? Or perhaps she was being rude,... not trying to make excuses for anybody.

The Premier Three is now 36 years old.

This really is also at the crux of the matter. It's almost 4 decades old. Without a strong sentimental attachment to the unit, I would not be investing significant amounts of money into a nearly 4 decade unit. As you have found out, replacement parts (ie tubes) are going to be very expensive, the service costs are the same whether they are working on your 36 year old unit or their newest flagship models that are selling for $40k. My local Ferrari dealership is going to charge the same hourly whether they are working on a LaFerrari or my Elantra. That's why I don't take my car to the Ferrari dealership. There is a point where servicing units that are inexpensive on the used market don't justify the high repair costs.

If you want to maybe fiddle with it or have a local guy that works for lower costs, maybe get it up on the bench and see what they can do with it, that may be an avenue to try. Otherwise, you can sell it as is and use those funds for something newer.

Utnick, I know this experience has left a sour taste in your mouth, but from many years of dealing with CJ personally and hearing other people's experience, I would describe their customer service as very good. They have some great offerings that are reasonably priced on the used market from the last 10-20 years which should give longevity. Maybe something to consider.

[AnotherJohnson]

It did surprise me that CJ still works on the older stuff.

I think this is a labor of love. When the Premier Three was developed, I don’t think Jeff even worked there yet.

When “fixed in the field,” CJ has enough history to know that the level of workmanship is inconsistent. There is also the issue of not wishing to share their intellectual property … with the rise of eBay, Intellectual Property theft has become a problem. Chinese companies are selling copies of CJ’s old designs.

The willingness of CJ (and also Audio Research Corporation) to work on their 40 year old gear is unique. They were the first back into the tubes pool after tubes had fallen out of favor. Their support for old products is not cheap, and parts availability sometimes thwarts the possibility of repair. But it is sincerely there.

[utnick]

Well, for anyone interested, I believe the original 5751s are GE JAN tubes. Still not sure on the 12ax7s or 5965s. They are up there in price. CJ was more expensive but I suppose not out to lunch price wise. I definitely don't buy the "thank you CJ for providing an exclusive source for information and repair" mentality but to each their own. A comparison to Ferrari was made which is ridiculous. I have not owned a Ferrari but have owned similar makes (vintage and not so vintage) and my experience with customer service regardless of age is 180 out from this one.

Pretty sure the issue with my amp is a short in a tube after looking over the schematic and doing some troubleshooting with the relay. I'll post the solution with exact symptoms once I pinpoint it.

[utnick]

Porsche will sell you parts for vintage models for a reasonable price and they're pretty good with customer service. I definitely don't call them for troubleshooting assistance and, once again, did not do that in this case. Not anywhere near apples to apples though. Don't really care that CJ has xx employees, why not show some enthusiasm for people trying to maintain some of their awesome old gear regardless of age (once again, not asking for free troubleshooting, rather willingness to repair without attitude or offer up some advice on where one can source parts/the correct parts).

[AnotherJohnson]

There are no comparable car analogies. There are no 5 employee car companies. CJ is smaller than most car dealerships, let alone car manufacturers.

It’s too bad you caught the part time secretary on a bad day.

I agree that she does not make the best impression sometimes.

But although she may be the voice of the company on the phone, she really doesn’t have anything to do with the products or the services.

Which is better? No answering of the phone, or inept answering of the phone.

My position is that both are bad, but ineptitude is worse than negligence. They ought to let it ring rather than to answer and botch it up.

[admin]

I don't want to make any judgement on conversations that I did not hear personally. I wonder if some of the dissatisfaction is because expectations are not met during these calls (looking for something other than tubes or instructions on sending equipment in for repair). Maybe CJ should be more clear on their website that phone contact is only for arranging sending in units for service or tube ordering. A disclaimer may mitigate the expectations of the callers, or eliminate the call that would by default lead to disappointment. I don't know if there is a good solution that will satisfy all?

[AnotherJohnson]

This lack of knowledge and lack of tact for the phone jockey has been a problem for years.

I was in “upper management” for 14 years… and it was obvious that some employees were less engaged with their job than others, and that this lack of engagement created issues for folks who needed to get through them to move forward in their quest.

Who do you fire?
Who do you retrain?
Who do you promote?
How do you motivate?

All big questions that are much more complex in a VERY VERY SMALL company. Personal factors drive personnel issues in a Mom & Pop operation.

So … CJ is not GM. It is what it is. A very small labor of love focused on designing and building the best hybrid and tube stereo gear JF can visualize. There’s not going to be a personnel department, personnel director, or even a close personnel supervisor. There are a couple of people and the boss has to decide which side of the bread is buttered. Is it chasing after someone who’s known and probably trusted to get them to change? Or is it better to focus on the quality of every ART component that moves through the system. Obviously JF has chosen the latter. I think he’s right.

[Truth71]

Owning an audio company that is trying, in the 21st century , to advance the principals of the originator from the 20th, I must give a tip of the hat to JF. His support of “legacy products” is far better than we are able to do. In order to keep the lights on and advance the art and science, a boutique manufacturer can’t dedicate personnel to 40+ year old products with low profit margins. However, if the demand is sufficient , the market should produce an independent “vintage restore” company to handle legacy products.

[AnotherJohnson]

In the case of both ARC and Wilson they suffered from embezzling support staff, leading them to seek trusted employees who shared their ethics. CJ may have this in mind. A trusted person might be a better support person than someone else with better skills.

CJ has a reputation for “quirky charm.” The phone service may be part of this.

But without a doubt, I have always been given FIRST RATE support, often from JF himself. I’ll carry water for him every time.