Law of Diminishing Returns in play

[AnotherJohnson]

This afternoon I’ve been comparing SACDs played on the Levinson 5101 to the 24/192 streamed counterparts played on the dCS Rossini.

I’ve matched levels as closely as I could discern.

I’ve picked well done SACDs, like Norah Jones Come Away with Me, Nickel Creek This Side, and similar where the streams were also known to be good.

I’ve played a track in one form and then played it again in the other form, carefully listening for differences. I’ve played through the albums on track at a time.

I have to say that both forms have been uniformly excellent. But there are differences in warmth, detail, roundness of notes, etc.

It is my impression that the one characteristic that is objective and different is that the level of hyper detail (ability to extract very low background vocals and instruments) falls in favor of streaming by the Rossini. But it requires concentration to recognize these. And note I’m comparing SACD to 24/192, which theoretically should fall in favor of the latter.

The other differences seem subtle and which might be preferred could be a matter of taste. Not knowing which is more accurate based on the master tapes, either could be accepted as excellent.

Based on the hyper detail comparison, I would say that I’m hearing 95+% of what the Rossini reveals on the Levinson played SACD presentation.

Of course the Levinson is a $6k piece and the Rossini is a $26k piece (about 4 times as expensive at retail).

So for four times more money at msrp, you achieve a roughly 5% increase in discernible performance.

Is this worth it? Admin is probably shaking his head “no.”

Is it worth it to me? I think so … but it is close to my limit of price tolerance. I did not give retail for either. And it might be shocking to know how little I have in the Levinson, which makes my real ratio closer to 8 than to 4.

The Rossini really is the cherry on my streaming sundae.
But it is not necessary to achieve audiophile level performance.

[admin]

Of course the Levinson is a $6k piece and the Rossini is a $26k piece (about 4 times as expensive at retail).

So for four times more money at msrp, you achieve a roughly 5% increase in discernible performance.

Is this worth it? Admin is probably shaking his head “no.”

Is it worth it to me? I think so … but it is close to my limit of price tolerance. I did not give retail for either. And it might be shocking to know how little I have in the Levinson, which makes my real ratio closer to 8 than to 4.

I think we all have our price for performance thresholds. And those can vary substantially. There are those that justify spending over half a million dollars on speakers alone. Are they in the wrong? How much better do those speakers sound than $50k speakers? I don't know.

By your posts on the Rossini, it sounds like this has taken your digital listening to another level. You didn't take out a 2nd mortgage on the house to fund the purchase, so it seems like in your case this was a responsible purchase that was worth it.

The ability to use a streaming service vs hard media really opens up a unfathomably large music catalog that you simply did not have access to before and offers new experiences with even the albums that you already may own on physical media.

If your feedback was "I don't like this digital streaming stuff",... I would argue that the money was ill spent. But that is not what I am hearing. If anything, a year ago you were rather pessimistic about streaming. Now you see the potential of the format. I think this alone has made the journey (and the expense) worthwhile.

Plus, you've peaked my interest in this high end gear. A $+25k streamer is certainly not in my budget at this time, but perhaps something like the roon nucleus may...

[AnotherJohnson]

I suspect that the difference between the Holo Audio May and the dCS Rossini would be even less significant.

But as good as BluOS is, Roon seems to be a worthy upgrade.

Except, since you’re using Amazon, and Roon does not appear to interface with Amazon, you may already be in a local optimum.

I like BluOS and the Node. What a great deal they are.

I would never have bothered with Roon if Mosaic Control weren’t presently disfunctional with Qobuz.

[admin]

I suspect that the difference between the Holo Audio May and the dCS Rossini would be even less significant.

It would definitely be an interesting comparison.

But as good as BluOS is, Roon seems to be a worthy upgrade.

Except, since you’re using Amazon, and Roon does not appear to interface with Amazon, you may already be in a local optimum.

I like BluOS and the Node. What a great deal they are.

I view BluOS/HEOS as a different beast than Roon. Roon really is at another level with their meta data and music processing engine. Roon I think is great for those with Quboz and/or an extensive digital collection.

BluOS is good for those wanting to integrate a bunch of different services. They just support "everything": https://support.bluos.net/hc/en-us/arti ... S-Support-

I would never have bothered with Roon if Mosaic Control weren’t presently disfunctional with Qobuz.

I think this may be a blessing in disguise. Roon with Qobuz just gives you an incredible experience. And I can confidently say that Mosaic Control (nor BluOS/HEOS) will never match Roon.

[AnotherJohnson]

I’ve ordered the plain ol’ Nucleus.

It comes with a one year subscription, so that saves about $150. I’m presently in the free trial period.

I think all I’ll have to do is hang it on my Ethernet and it will find the devices. Then control will be by the Roon Remote app on my phone.

[admin]

Very exciting. I'm definitely interested in hearing your opinion on the nucleus. I think getting the "plain" one makes sense. The 1 year subscription is essentially a 10% discount which is substantial. Unless you are very heavy into DSPs, I really don't see much point to the + version. It is definitely the version I would have gone for myself.

[AnotherJohnson]

Very exciting. I'm definitely interested in hearing your opinion on the nucleus. I think getting the "plain" one makes sense. The 1 year subscription is essentially a 10% discount which is substantial. Unless you are very heavy into DSPs, I really don't see much point to the + version. It is definitely the version I would have gone for myself.

Basically I would have committed to the subscription after the free trial, so getting the free year is a true “discount.”

The MDA200 Mac DAC has shipped, so I’ll probably have that next week. That’s not Roon Tested as far as I can tell. But I want it to compare a Mac SACD player to my Levinson and Marantz Ruby models. Something will probably end up sold or traded eventually.

So far, as a combination DAC and Player, I’m most impressed with the Levinson 5101. As a straight up DAC, it’s the Rossini.

I’m keeping the Ruby for its headphone amp.

It seems overly easy to end up with more sources than needed.

[admin]

I believe the MDA200 is "Roon Tested."

AJ,

I'm a little unclear as to this purchase? Are you expecting the MDA200 to outperform the dCS? I can't offer an objective opinion as I have not compared the two, but I would expect the dCS to significantly outperform the MDA200. It really should considering the +4x difference in price.

[AnotherJohnson]

I do not expect the MDA 200 to outperform the Rossini.

I do want to try the MCT500 transport with SACDs and to compare that to the Ruby and the 5101. The MDA 200 will be used for that.

If I want to play SACDs on the Rossini, I will have to fork over a LOT of $$$ for a Rossini or Vivaldi transport. So that’s off the table unless a good deal shows up on a used one. I am in the queue for a good trade if one shows up.

I would also like to compare the Rossini and MDA 200 on red book CDs, both spun by the MCT 500.

I ordered the MDA 200 on a whim. My price was “fair”. It will be fun to have another piece of modern McIntosh. The MDA 200 has a replaceable digital module, so when McIntosh upgrades their DAC, it can be upgraded by replacing the digital module. That’s cool.

[AnotherJohnson]

FWIW, I dug around a bit before ordering it and it appears that McIntosh is a bit secretive about the source of their DAC chip.

And they seem to be claiming some redundancy in data retrieval via that transport.

McIntosh is always thoughtful and well engineered. It will be interesting to hear what the MCT 500 + MDA 200 sound like for both CDs and SACDs. I like having a US sourced player, but the Levinson is US sourced too.

Comparing red book CDs on the MCT 500 driven Rossini to the same disks on the MCT 500 driven MDA 200 might further show off this concept of diminishing returns. My ratio on these two DACs is about 5 to 1. Will the MDA 200 get 90% or more of the performance at 20% of the cost? We’ll see.

[AnotherJohnson]

The Nucleus is scheduled to get here Tuesday.

But the more I listen to 24/192 Qobuz jazz files from the 50’s and 60’s, via Roon, through the Rossini, the harder I’m falling for this technology.

I’m beginning to wonder if there really are diminishing returns as your mind and ears become accustomed to this level of performance. Maybe returns are present in spades as your listening matures and cues in.

It is hard to go backwards.

[admin]

Time will tell. But it will definitely be interesting on what you think about the nucleus.

[AnotherJohnson]

The Nucleus arrives tomorrow. Tonight I thought I’d do some critical listening using an album I haven’t listened to lately, ie Miles Davis’s Sketches of Spain.

I’ve got vinyl, CD, SACD, and Qobuz has three versions … Mono, Stereo, and an anniversary version with about twice the original content. The mono is 24/96. The stereo is 24/88.2.

I cued the stereo and mono versions up for a serious listen, and was singularly unimpressed. Neither was special.

There may have been some problem with the network or with Qobuz. There were a few dropouts and when they occurred, Roon shared a pop up window that announced “Qobuz is loading slowly. There may be a network problem.”

So … were these files lacking over the whole program due to network issues that were not serious enough to cause dropouts? Jitter? I don’t know. But they were lacking.

I played the SACD just for comparison… on both the Levinson/ARC/Wilson gear, and now on the SA-KI Ruby headphone amp with the Sennheiser HD 800 S. The SACD really is excellent. Far clearer spatial cues and details compared to either Qobuz stream through the Rossini.

Once again, there’s no definitively best format. It may even vary from one day to the next due to data stream issues that are unknown or beyond your control.

[admin]

It may just be that certain versions are truly less impressive than others from an audio standpoint. However, the network errors are obviously concerning. I know there have been internet issues in the past so I would maybe try to rerun the speed tests and packet loss tests on the system when these issues are happening.

Looking forward to your report on the nucleus.

[AnotherJohnson]

Interesting, at least to me, Amazon did not have the slow loading issue when I went to streaming their catalog via HEOS through the Marantz ND8006. Was this just because of the internet service was running better in this shifted time slice? Or was it because Amazon was not having the same problems as Qobuz?

Streaming at its best is incredibly good. But you have no control over assurance of “the best.”

I realize this does not bother dedicated streamers.

Maybe the problems with the data stream before it gets to your bit of network are why people go to all the trouble and expense of ripping CDs and vinyl, or paying for downloads.

The electronic storage has virtually zero footprint. Electronic searching is easy and reliable. Programs like Roon can give you large amounts of extra information, even compared to notes included with 12” LPs.

One thing I’m noticing is that Roon is using AI to try to learn about you. Whom does it share data with? Based on your listening history it is constantly suggesting new material. Is this harmless? I dunno.

Early on it figured out that I like jazz guitar and I also like female Jazz vocals. So now it’s trying to combine the two and it’s suggesting jazz guitarists who are accompanying B-List female vocalists. Shrill sirenes songs… I’m about to turn the radio feature off.

[admin]

Interesting, at least to me, Amazon did not have the slow loading issue when I went to streaming their catalog via HEOS through the Marantz ND8006. Was this just because of the internet service was running better in this shifted time slice? Or was it because Amazon was not having the same problems as Qobuz?

Hard to say. It may have been just an internet issue that came up while playing Qobuz. It's also hard to compare different platforms as music playing software tends to buffer a significant portion of songs before/during playback. The buffer will allow music to be played uninterrupted even with significant temporary loss of internet. The larger the buffer, the more resistant to dropouts.

Maybe the problems with the data stream before it gets to your bit of network are why people go to all the trouble and expense of ripping CDs and vinyl, or paying for downloads.

Local storage certainly has some advantages. However, I will say that most internet connections should be able to support a consistent 10 mbps throughput which would be the max needed to stream real-time content at the highest available level (lossless 24b/192khz).

The electronic storage has virtually zero footprint. Electronic searching is easy and reliable. Programs like Roon can give you large amounts of extra information, even compared to notes included with 12” LPs.

One thing I’m noticing is that Roon is using AI to try to learn about you. Whom does it share data with? Based on your listening history it is constantly suggesting new material. Is this harmless? I dunno.

Early on it figured out that I like jazz guitar and I also like female Jazz vocals. So now it’s trying to combine the two and it’s suggesting jazz guitarists who are accompanying B-List female vocalists. Shrill sirenes songs… I’m about to turn the radio feature off.

https://roonlabs.com/privacypolicy

Looks like they are being rather responsible with their data,.. but you do give up some privacy issues with any streaming service (audio, video, or other).

The AI behind these systems is variable from service to service, but Roon does have a reputation of having one of the best. I don't think you will find better.

[AnotherJohnson]

You’re more optimistic about the relationship between Policy and reality than I think is warranted.

Theoretical continuous speed doesn’t manifest as good performance here. It’s easy to talk about numbers, but there are a lot of numerical descriptors that aren’t even commonly defined.

What I hear is inconsistency. Great … mediocre … great …. bad … it varies. Might be great for a week or two.

I don’t think it can be fixed as long as the data are coming from an offsite source.

The Nucleus and the MDA200 are here. I’d better get to work.

[admin]

Very possible. I think at this point companies know just about everything there is to know about us. Our taste is music is probably the least concerning piece of information out there.

My location every minute of every day is known from my phone's geolocation. Amazon knows my preference in cereal flavor, my credit card company know more about my spending habits than I do. And lets not forget the more serious data leaks like the Equifax data leak of 2017 where actual damaging (that could be used for fraud and identity theft) was put out into the open for 150 million Americans.

I think it's just one of the negatives of the digital age and I don't think there is any way around it at this point, unless you want to go completely off-grid and live in a van down by the river.

[AnotherJohnson]

I think your taste in music can reveal far more than you might think.

It has shocked me to see how quickly we have given up security in exchange for convenience.

[AnotherJohnson]

Very possible. I think at this point companies know just about everything there is to know about us. Our taste is music is probably the least concerning piece of information out there.

My location every minute of every day is known from my phone's geolocation. Amazon knows my preference in cereal flavor, my credit card company know more about my spending habits than I do. And lets not forget the more serious data leaks like the Equifax data leak of 2017 where actual damaging (that could be used for fraud and identity theft) was put out into the open for 150 million Americans.

I think it's just one of the negatives of the digital age and I don't think there is any way around it at this point, unless you want to go completely off-grid and live in a van down by the river.

I wonder how many from the post baby boom generations are aware that taste in music was used by both Nazis and Communists during WWII and the Cold War.

Nazis did their best to squelch US free form music, like rock, pop, and jazz. So did the Communists. US Intelligence broadcast these forms of music into occupied territories. A radio was often a secret and prized possession among the oppressed. Radio Free Europe included Jazz broadcasts because jazz connoted freedom. Tours were organized for Jazz musicians because they represented freedom, choices, and improvisation.

Music taste was/is also used as a discriminator by governments who oppress Christians and Jews.

The idea that by letting Big Brother in on your listening preferences, you’re compromising your potential freedom has historical precedent in generations that are still alive.

When we fail to learn lessons from history, we are doomed to repeat it. I’ve never seen such a lackadaisical attitude toward the dangers of centralized data collection as exists among average folks alive in 2023.