Old vs New Sound

[caryking]

I’ve asked this question many times, in other forums, without a really good response; so, I’ll try here…

Something changed in tube amps and preamps somewhere around 20-30 years ago. Tube equipment used to have this euphoric, warm, 3D sound that’s become more analytical. New equipment still has the holographic sound; however, the warm, almost syrupy sound has turned more analytical.

What changed in the circuit that made this change? Are we running tubes hotter today? BTW, I’m not an engineer; however, I will understand enough to be dangerous.

So, any help with this will be greatly appreciated.

Also, I’m new here and I’m a former owner of a Premier 2 back in the early 90’s. I really thought that preamp was more aligning to the old sound.

[AnotherJohnson]

McIntosh correctly called the phenomenon “euphonious distortion.”

What happened is that tube designers got better.

If you’re looking for old time tube sound, consider the Thrax or Jolida offerings. Or, of course, vintage CJ.

[roberto]

Hola Caryking,

The sound is a matter of liking. I would say that what I like not necessary must be your liking and viceversa. The quality signature sound of Conrad Johnson sounds right and it is my liking too. Just search for what your ears like. They are the final judges...period! It does not matters what I like or anybody...the truth is what your ears tell you.

Happy listening!

[AnotherJohnson]

Of course the ears are the judge. No one can tell another what they should like.

Roberto, are you arguing that 1990 CJ sounds like 2020 CJ?

Whatever your answer, I am not going to engage in argument. But most here would historically agree with the premise of the OP. Most modern tube gear is more articulate and more balanced compared to tube gear “of old.”

[roberto]

Noooo, I'm just saying that the new stuff might not be his liking, due to the fact that he is looking or searching for a richness that was on older tube sound. But this richness is not compared with the new quality and precision sound on CJ goods on these days. The harmonic texture was to my ears, on the vintage CJ goods, too sweet, too overemotional...and that was the reason why I went with many other brands, seeking what now CJ offers to my ears...I am super happy with the quality and improved clearness, size of the stage, size of the musical instruments and voices, steady stage, and the overall sound quality. Yes, there are other models that surpass what I have, but right now, in my system, I don't want to change even a screw. Everything that I listen to, has a kind of a very well performance. I do enjoy a lot the fun of the musicians playing together and their communication. The solo artists, the way that they are performing for us, the listeners!

I never have enjoy the music as today's days, with the new CJ design circuit design. You know the path, shortest circuit with the best components that the electronic industry can provide.

[admin]

Agree with AJ, tube designers got "better." Of course it's going to be how you define better. If you are looking for clearer, more dynamic, more accurate reproduction of music, then you will most likely like the newer offerings more than the old. If you are looking for that "old time warmth" which to a large extent was some distortion, then the older gear might be to your liking.

This is like arguing that modern photographs are better than the ones taken 30-40 years ago. If you are referring to clarity and color reproduction, then yes, the new ones are better. But there are some beautiful photographs from decades past that do not have lower artistic merit than contemporary photographs.

My ET7s2/ART combo sounds different than my PV-14L/MV-55 one. I enjoy both. At the end of the day you have judge with your ears.

[caryking]

Thanks for all the answers. I agree that it is the ears of the beholder; however, I was really asking about the change itself. Are we talking more 2nd order distortion, in the old ones? If so, what changed in the circuit to achieve this new sound vs old sound?

[AnotherJohnson]

Thanks for all the answers. I agree that it is the ears of the beholder; however, I was really asking about the change itself. Are we talking more 2nd order distortion, in the old ones? If so, what changed in the circuit to achieve this new sound vs old sound?

This is a very old debate. Some who profess knowledge claim that even order harmonics are more melodious than odd order harmonics. Others do not agree that it is so simple.

CJ’s vintage distortion specs are horrible. Small band with large acceptable amounts. Bill and Lew were PhD economists, not electrical engineers.

[caryking]

Thanks for all the answers. I agree that it is the ears of the beholder; however, I was really asking about the change itself. Are we talking more 2nd order distortion, in the old ones? If so, what changed in the circuit to achieve this new sound vs old sound?

This is a very old debate. Some who profess knowledge claim that even order harmonics are more melodious than odd order harmonics. Others do not agree that it is so simple.

CJ’s vintage distortion specs are horrible. Small band with large acceptable amounts. Bill and Lew were PhD economists, not electrical engineers.

Really, how many audio mfg’s are electrical engineers. That doesn’t surprise me at all…

[AnotherJohnson]

Really, how many audio mfg’s are electrical engineers. That doesn’t surprise me at all…

Just about all of the long term successful ones.

The list is too long to post here.

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes this is very true, in fact not pertaining only to CJ.

Regarding CJ of course, their vintage gear was highly musical. Very relaxing, somewhat rolled off in HF extension and low level bass, it was the midband that captured attention. It had an enveloping affect, a sort of sound that wraps around you and melts in the chair.

CJ's earlier Premier series gear had the ability to float an image right in front of you between the speakers. It was marvellous!

Fast fwd that to 20 to 30yrs onwards, other tube gear like Manley Labs, ARC and especially VTL, had far more power. These amplifiers had better drive and control, plus offered extended highs and very low defined bass provided the speakers were upto par. Take for example the earlier designs by Jadis, they sounded nearly similar to vintage CJ, very caramel sounding with plenty of syrup. Now Jadis has upgraded all their circuits, proving greater control and superb dynamic contrasts. Recently I heard the Jadis 80w monoblocks driving the Diptyque ribbons, superb!

So, CJ just had to join this bandwagon, of more definition, less syrupy, much much quieter, more open detailed and well controlled extensions on both HF & LF plus a more tangible midband. CJ's latest designs incorporate very high quality parts with just 1%tolerances. They have further minimised parts and minimised signal paths to such short stages that you will hear everything on the recording in its intended way, without any artifices. Take for example the high quality Vishay resistors used in their top line gear and SE versions, these resistors are used extensively in critical stages of the signal path and further reduces noise levels. Vishays are extremely quiet and most of all highly transparent, you hear every minute detail on the recording.

This is the new sound of CJ.

Those of us who were used to the earlier gear will never get used to this new type of squeaky clean sound. Because of the lack of any artifices, sometimes we feel there's something lacking... or at least I feel that way, and it takes a while getting acclimatised to.
This is one reason why CJ introduced the Classic series gear, the classic series still possess some of that golden glow that CJ was well known for. The Classic series also offers the SE version for those looking for further defined performance but there are still quite a number of owners who prefer the Non-SE version, and that's why CJ still offers both.

In the case of their latest ART series amplifiers, there are no compromises, it's SE full swing to the Max! Every single design stsge has been fitted out with the very best! So there aren't any non-se models in the ART series.

At the end of the day, I wouldn't really say that one's superior than the other but generally the gear with newer circuits and top quality parts will yield better performance. However, if you're personal preference is that golden glow and vintage sound then by all means you'll prefer any of CJ's PV, MV or Premier series amplifiers. They're still pretty good, although quite vintage but if kept in good condition and well looked after, they will provide wonderful music for life!

Either way, my best advice, enjoy those finest tunes!
Cheers, RJ

[roberto]

Caryking,

Just listen the new goods and your ears will tell how great the sound quality it is. Coherence, detail, harmonic texture, size of the musical instruments and voices, wind, percussion, strings, you name it...all them sound better to and for my ears. The S/N is over -100dB, so much detail comes out. The definition is also more evident. How CJ is doing this? Better electronic components and the smallest signal-pass through the circuit. Yes, still the second harmonic is very important...this is what instruments and voices make them to sing. A guitar vs another guitar, they do sound different, even being the same model...second and even harmonics are the clue.

The reason why many of us love the tube sound.

Happy listening!

[caryking]

All, again, thanks for the feedback. When Cary Audio started, I worked there. In fact, my quicksilver monoblocks (8417 variant) were the original basis for Dennis Had. I’ll never forget him coming into a local audio shop, where I had the Quicksilvers setup. He offered to buy them, on the spot, and I sold them to him.

At the time, I had the Primiere 2 and I remember the sound I got from that combo being very much as described (old sound). Additionally, I have listened to a number of systems, with the new sound. I agree, you do get more inner detail; however, you lose what I like. Interesting enough, today I’m using a Marantz 2226 receiver as my main rig. Why? Well, for a solid state piece, it’s get you closer to the vintage sound, that I prefer.

Dennis Had and I remain friends, for a number of reasons. One being, his wife was my babysitter, when I was young, so we have a bond. I do get to hang out at his facility (small, but very workable) and listen to his current Inspire line. His stuff has made the transition to the new sound as well.

That said, I’ve had a love for CJ equipment, not just for sound; rather, also for nostalgia of the brand. While at Cary Audio, I would travel to the CES show and help with setup and showing the equipment. This was at the old Sahara hotel, for the high-end stuff. I met both Conrad and Johnson, at the shows. For me, I was in front of audio gods! I’ll never forget that!

So getting back to the sound differences, circuit designs really haven’t changed much; however, part values probably have (not talking about parts quality). Anyone with any engineering understanding, what design values have changed to make this noticeable sound change?

[AnotherJohnson]

If your argument is that a resister was changed from 5k to 5.5k and a capacitor was changed from 400 pF to 1 mF, it is my opinion that you are on the wrong track.

If instead you recognize that polypropylene and Teflon caps sound better, and laser trimmed metal film resistors have really tight tolerances, and power supplies are now more robust, and power regulation is now far better controlled, and that while a company like CJ has a reputation as a tube company, most of the current era preamps are really hybrids … etc etc etc, then you might be getting closer to the truth.

JF has some really well thought out layouts and he uses very high quality parts. He has managed to mitigate things like the phantom impedances that come from the proximity effects of the complex layouts.

[caryking]

If your argument is that a resister was changed from 5k to 5.5k and a capacitor was changed from 400 pF to 1 mF, it is my opinion that you are on the wrong track.

If instead you recognize that polypropylene and Teflon caps sound better, and laser trimmed metal film resistors have really tight tolerances, and power supplies are now more robust, and power regulation is now far better controlled, and that while a company like CJ has a reputation as a tube company, most of the current era preamps are really hybrids … etc etc etc, then you might be getting closer to the truth.

JF has some really well thought out layouts and he uses very high quality parts. He has managed to mitigate things like the phantom impedances that come from the proximity effects of the complex layouts.

Perhaps you’re right. I don’t know. According to Big Dog Rj, above, the classic series harkens back to the old days. So, what exactly is going on there?

[AnotherJohnson]

According to Big Dog Rj, above, the classic series harkens back to the old days. So, what exactly is going on there?

It is my view that the Classic models are CJ’s attempt to provide a modern CJ experience at a more modest price point. Read Jeff Fischel’s actual descriptions on the CJ web site. He does not go into a nostalgic tribute to Morpheus. No sweet syrup or cozy caramel. He talks about the realism available, even at Classic level pricing.

The CJ distortion figures are still among the largest in the industry for both ART and Classic. 1.5% and a very modest bandwidth. CJ is not about accuracy. CJ is about “sounding right” to their customer base of nostalgic audiophiles. Nothing wrong with that. I think the Classic series is the best Jeff can do at the price point. The ART series is the best he can do without regard to price.

[caryking]

According to Big Dog Rj, above, the classic series harkens back to the old days. So, what exactly is going on there?

It is my view that the Classic models are CJ’s attempt to provide a modern CJ experience at a more modest price point. Read Jeff Fischel’s actual descriptions on the CJ web site. He does not go into a nostalgic tribute to Morpheus. No sweet syrup or cozy caramel. He talks about the realism available, even at Classic level pricing.

The CJ distortion figures are still among the largest in the industry for both ART and Classic. 1.5% and a very modest bandwidth. CJ is not about accuracy. CJ is about “sounding right” to their customer base of nostalgic audiophiles. Nothing wrong with that. I think the Classic series is the best Jeff can do at the price point. The ART series is the best he can do without regard to price.

Thanks for the explanation regarding the Classic series…