Premier 11, Premier 12, Premier 140 in order of hierarchy and short list of why you chose

[jahatl513]

To All if you've had experience or knowledge, which in order of the high to low would you place Premier 11, 12, and 140 amps and why; mono-block or not.

[Big Dog RJ]

Out of these "premier" series amplifiers, I personally wouldn't rank them at all, based on my personal experience with all of them, including the Prem 8's.

They are superb in their own right, very similar in design /circuit, main difference being power output.

I remember back in the hey day, the one & only customer who ordered a pair of Prem 8's, asked us this very same question, ranking/preference...

Just for demo purposes, we connected the Prem 11A to a pair of Avant Grade Duo's, it was a marvelous sound. One that was not just dynamic with a sense of truly effortless speed & attack but also very musical indeed. The 70w output of the Prem 11A was more than adequate. The efficiency of the AG Duo's was somewhere around 110dB or above I think... Very high efficiency, virtually any amplifier could drive those Duo's.

Another customer also tried the Prem 12's on the horns but ended up with a 18w SET amp from Golden Tube Audio, it was a perfect match for the Duo's.

The much larger CJ amps caused the Duo's to hum..

I strongly believe it also depends on the room and system / component dependent, based on such equipment and their class ratings. Hence, if the speakers are huge Apogee's or similar panel types with notorious impedence curves, the Prem 8's will excel in this regard.

Overall, considering the Prem 140, if I was to decide on a purchase, it would be the Prem 140, since this stereo amp came after the earlier premier series. It was probably the last tube amp CJ made designated as a premier series amp, other than of course the Prem 350, which was solid state.

Even though the Prem 140 is slightly newer in that regard, they all shared the same basic circuit.

Then again, if you must rank in order of performance, I would think if a person is very interested in owning one of these vintage amps, and has sufficient funds for maintenance, including upgrades along the way just in order to keep the amps running in good condition, the Prem 8's would take first place on the podium.

In my experience, they are outstanding amplifiers, and can still hold strong to many SOTA contenders... Including CJ's very own!

Just my 50cts worth, cheers RJ

[Joe Appierto]

I agree with RJ. For sheer musicality the 11A is outstanding however the 140 was more neutral and the increased output of the 140 projected an even larger, more dimensional soundstage. When I had the C1 capacitor upgrade done to the 140 it went to an entirely new level. Increased clarity and better response at the frequency extremes.

[jahatl513]

Interesting and insightful. The lack of Prem 12 statements says what? I've had a Prem 140; upgraded to C1 by CJ and it was a blossom. I'll throw this out. I'm testing a Prem 12 mono c1 upgrade w/ about 60 hours to the upgrade. I have a new CLASSIC 120 SE w/ about 200 hours on it. Using the ET-7 w/ @300 hours as my pre. Swapping back n forth; at first thought the P12 Mono's were a whole new world, but then remembered the morning I put them in line I got 2 new pieces of music and had put them on first. First up was; LAURENCE HOBGOOD CHARLIE HADEN w/ KURT ELLING When The Heart Breaks CD; into my Oppo 105. I had a few Holy S*&it moments. Then was the David Gilmour - S/T LP - Columbia recording on the JA Michell Orbe SE w/SME V tone arm. Again.... "hold the train" moments. After I settled down, walked away to do some chores I figured out that the error of my way was new reference instead of old reference; what is common and understood as apposed to what is new and shiny and wonderfully refreshing. I went back, put on something I was very familiar with; enjoyed that a few times and then made a 5 min switch to the CLASSIC 120SE and started over.
Wonder if any of you can guess what the outcome was?

[Big Dog RJ]

Outstanding stuff mate, in fact I went to Kurt Elling's private concert in Melbourne, few years ago around 2015 if I'm correct. It was at the Palae theatre, same place I saw George Benson, who is one of my jazz idols. That was a definite "stop the train" moment! Another performance done there by Diana Krill and Casandra Wilson, two of my favorite jazz female artists.

The premier series amplifiers were known as the hall mark of CJ 's modern vacuum tube amplifiers. Obviously things to change... These were replaced by the LP series and now the Classic series. Down the line, CJ decided to focus on stereo power amps and retain monoblocks only as top of the line, including very high power. The only monoblocks in current production are the Art series and that's in Limited Edition, therefore the premier and LP series are basically rare gems...

I've heard the Classic 120 both in standard and SE version, and they are superb! There isn't anything to fault and they perform in an extraordinary league of their own. Partner these classic amplifiers with top of the line preamps, such as the ET7 or GAT and SOTA is achieved!

I would certainly love to have one of those combinations in pre-power but my finances are not so lofty. After careful auditioning and extensive personal usage of various forms of CJ's pre-power combinations, I gathered for me at least, it would still be nice to have a bit of that golden glow that CJ was known for. Match that up with their newer offerings, such as the Classic series and this would provide a very high level of musicality at its finest.

Further that by matching the golden glow to a pair of fine monoblocks, such as the LP series, upgrade as recommended by CJ with CJ, and SOTA is very easily achieved at a fraction of the cost. And as I've said in the past "good enough is as good enough"!

Of course amplification and speaker matching is a very personal thing and most of the reviews nowadays sometimes get carried away not only by "the perfect sound" but also in terms of some very high price points...

At the end of the day mate, if it sounds best to your ears, in whatever shape or form, then its 'good enough"!
Enjoy your classic 120 SE & ET7, that is basically SOTA, I personally wouldn't add anything further.
Cheers mate, RJ

[jahatl513]

Thanks for entertaining me Big Dog RJ and Hello from Georgia. The answer to my outcome is this. The Premier 12 c1's in mono sound almost dead on the Classic 120SE Stereo. I'm happy to report that if anyone looking to dig into their pockets deeply for Classic 120SE can get there at half the price w/ Prem12's. Its close, and very much so at least so far. What's right is right for me yes and good enough to be great. When I get the Premier 350 back I'm sure it will be a "Stop the Train" moment.

[Big Dog RJ]

I like that stop the train moment...
In fact I was saying this to the wifey, since she catches the train each morning to work & back. I said holy moly sweets, you should listen to the LP monoblocks now, and stop the train! I'd say this to her over the phone and she'd think Im retarded... Nearly getting there actually!

The prem350 is a totally different beast one that matches extremely well with the Act2. I know this because I did have the Act2 before and did try a prem350 just for a spin, and a marvelous ride it was!
However, that brute force with unlimited power was not quite required on the Quads at the time nor is it ever required on the ML Ethos. The CLX's maybe mmm.

Anyway, I am sure you would have really enjoyed those Prem12's, they are one of kind and SOTA at the very finest indeed. Upgraded further with all of CJ's goodies and that's probably all you would ever require in terms of amplification. Just curious what are doing with all these amps?

If you get bored with any of them, just send then across to Melbourne, I will gladly accept prompt delivery! I do look after my customers... In fact I'm waiting for Roberto's CLX's but he's not getting bored... That's the issue!
It's now 4am and I'm off to
A very good night to all, RJ

[jahatl513]

Big Dog, I was a McIntosh kind of guy for a short while. I then got a hold of Prem 140 and tubes and CJ took hold of me hard like no other. I then added the PV 12 w/ phono and it took off from there. I rotate them in n out and enjoy them each like kids, but the PREM 12 mono's are a "Lets Swap my Prem350 for your Mono's and see" kind of deal.

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes, I understand the comparison and your point of view.
I think it would definitely be a most enjoyable experience, and also one that will be very hard to choose as a final amplifier...

I guess, you are blessed with true CJ-ness having the ability to swap amps every now and then. That would certainly keep things lively and listening sessions always a great project to look forward to.

With CJ it's one of those very rare characters, where if you're using either SS or tubes, the musical passion shines through each of their components regardless of design... As far as I can recall CJ has never made a bad or under-performing amplifier.

However, compared to other well known SS & tube brands, they are so different in design, sound & nature, it's not even funny!
It is also very hard to match well in a system due to their varying traits and sometimes gets frustrating thinking that you purchased something fantastic (because it has over 400w/ch) but can't produce that music compared to a vintage CJ mv55... My golly!
Anyway, do let us know how your comparisons go, it is certainly great to learn more from your experiences.
Cheers mate, have a good one
RJ

[ronenash]

I would choose the Premier 140 because it uses tubes that are available new today. The 11 and 12 use the 6fq7 tube that is no longer made and as such will be Notre difficult to source in good quality.
Circuit wise the design is very similar.

[Joe Appierto]

Just as a point of information, I believe Electro-Harmonix still manufactures the 6CG7/6FQ7.

[jahatl513]

Point taken about the tubes. It's not as if the 6CG7 / 6FQ7 are not available; they seem a plenty.

[jahatl513]

According to CJ Staff:
"We have a variety of NOS 6FQ7's, the supply may last another 6-10 years.
Then we'll have to modify the amps to use something else.
The 6FQ7's in that position in the circuit, really don't affect the sound at all. So they can get very old before needing replacement.
Not really an issue, as far as longevity of the amp."

I've had the Premier 140 and it did not compare to a mono block Prem12 c1 in any way.

[Joe Appierto]

Just one man's opinion but I'd disagree with c-j's assertion. I found that the brand/vintage of the 6CG7 or 6FQ7 that I used in my Premier 11A most decidedly did affect the sound.

[jahatl513]

Joe: opinions expand our educational experiences. Question for you then. Did you have a brand of 6cg7's you really liked?

[Joe Appierto]

My favorites were Sylvania 6CG7, GE 6CG7 and RCA clear top 6FQ7. Just as a point of information, a difference between the earlier 6CG7 and the later 6FQ7 is the presence of an electrostatic shield on the former which is supposed to result in less noise. That having been said, conrad-johnson doesn't ground pin 9 on these tubes so the difference may be academic in this application.

Example of the electrostatic shield as shown on the Sylvania 6CG7.

[roberto]

Hola to all, and please excuse my dare to chime a little bit here. I think that the new circuit design by C-J is more toward the 6922 or similar tube...and it is bringing a lot of great sound too. Their concern regarding the 6CG7 is that the ones that were built and the performance is very acceptable, are very difficult to get them on these days...the stock of the good ones have being reduced a lot.

I had a Premier Four in the 90s driving my CLSs, and I was very happy with the overall sound. Power enough to drive a lot of low sensitivity speakers. I am with C+J since 1982. Some years had passed, and the life made me to sell my beloved C-J goods, due to an illness of my mother. But now I am back, and I am recovering all the years that I did not have C-J.

All of you know how pleased I am with my new toys. I just got the latest DAC by Exasound and a UPTONE 12DC power supply model JS-2. Guys, trust your ears! They are the final judges!

Happy listening!

[jahatl513]

Roberto, we are all CJ; no reason to care to dare; just chime in. I get you, and it sounded to me from Cj's perspective that the circuit could be redone to accept something other than 6CG7's. Wonder if anyone has discussed this with Bill Thalman (SP) or someone else. In the between time. I'm trying out the British made Mazda's some time next week and will give them a nice break in along with KT120's in Prem 12c1's.
Joe A, are you listening to your CA200? If so how do you like it?

[roberto]

Hola, its just that I do not want to imposed myself, thanks for the welcome!!! The Classé CA300 (not the CA200) I just sold it to a friend. He is using the Martin Logans Impression model and the result is very good. He is very happy with the quality sound of the Classé, and the way that drives these speakers. But to me, honestly, is not my league. He plays his system too loud! After 15 minutes listening at his SPL, my ears start to have tinnitus. I told him so, but he said that he likes it that way. He had Krell Balanced power amp before.

A big yes, for the possibility to do a mod in an amp for a change of a similar tube. Sometimes there is a lot of work to do, but with C-J using in mind the shortest signal path into the circuit, perhaps is not a big mod. Of course, the work must be done by Mr. Jeff Fischel, or a similar knowledged person. Jeff is the person to talk to about this. He will tell us the truth.

Regarding your appreciations about the Classic 12OSE, please tell us your findings. Are you as happy as I am with it?
Happy listening to all!

[Joe Appierto]

I've had the conrad-johnson CA200 for a handful of years now and don't regret buying it. It does certain things quite well and as an all-around integrated (control amplifier) comes close to the best I've had from c-j. The premier 16LS2 pre-amp and 140 C1 amplifier are still my favorites in some ways when it comes to imaging, for example. The CA200, on the other hand, has a stronger grip on the bottom of the frequency range.

I tried the Mazda (Brimar) which I purchased from Upscale Audio. It is labelled a 6CG7 but as far as I can tell is actually a 6FQ7 (no electrostatic shield). It's definitely different looking for this tube type. In terms of how it sounded? Thought it was a bit too sweet and a lacking a little in detail but that was with a Premier 11A and QUAD 989 speakers with both the 16LS2 and the predecessor 17LS as preamps.

Bill Thalmann is a stand-up guy. He was the chief designer and third in charge of c-j for 20 years. He worked on and modified a PV-10AL I had turning it into a 10A (in other words, added a phonostage) and checked out the CA200 I sent him because it kept blowing fuses on start-up. After adjusting the DC offset to me on the CA200 for nothing more than a service charge, I've had the unit ever since.

My knowing that the 11A is the little brother to the Premier 12's that you have makes me envious and happy for you. Especially in that you've had the capacitor upgrade.

Enjoy.