The Martin Logan CLX's, a true work of Art!

[roberto]

With much respect Admin, your ears, your system...

I have corrected many systems when the customer used the famous room correction. To me, it is much better to use room acoustics than a cheap mic and a software doing the job. If you train your ears, you will notice those differences...that's a tool that it is not for my liking. I own a real time analyser, and playing a pink noise, you can see graphically the room frequency response. Also the bad resonances. You have to deal with those unwanted peaks, specially a low frequencies...you know all that. Believe when I say, your ears are mode powerful than that tool.

Happy listening!

[roberto]

If you like what you hear with the room correction tools, so be it...it is just my personal appreciation and this is not intended as a statement. All I want to pointed out, that the naturalness of the musical instruments are far better when you do the job with your own trained ears.

Happy listening!

[admin]

roberto,
I don't disagree with you. Your ear is ultimately the best judge of music sound quality. I was just saying that I have found a calibration mic useful as a diagnostic tool. This can help in some trouble shooting aspects that are not related to music quality per se. For example, ground loop hum can be identified by looking for 60 hz spikes, volume discrepancies between channels are easy to identified with a db meter. I view it much like a ground loop isolator, my multimeter, or other diagnostic tool. It's a tool to identify problems, not a judge of quality.

As for the enjoyment of the sound, I agree that it is not identifiable on a calibration mic (or any other electronic tool). My ears are the ultimate judge whether something sounds right or not.

Happy listening to you as well.

[AnotherJohnson]

Good news for CLX Art fans … last year’s garage sale prices are gone. Current asking prices are back up quite a bit.

One pair of used cherry are being advertised at $25k, which is twice last year’s typical asking price (in the US).

I love the ML Masterpiece sound with the right amps and in the right room.

I’ve found the ML advice about final placement tweaking to work well regardless of the brand of speakers. ML was a GREAT, technically savvy company. I hope this is maintained in the new era.

When you get right down to it, the CLX Arts were probably the best $30k speakers available when ML was offering them.

FWIW, my limited experience with room correction systems does suggest to me that it can fix tonal balance issues … but for me that’s not the most important descriptor. They seem to affect the openness and naturalness of the presentation. As it’s turning out, an awful lot of serious listeners are not fans.

It is more satisfying to do your best with the room. Room correction does have its defenders though. They’re usually people who are limited in their space, and consequently forced into the corners, or against the walls.

The dipoles seem to be less affected by the side wall proximity than typical cone drivers. But as ML notes, the best side wall is no side wall.

YMMV. As Bobby says, your system, your ears.

[roberto]

Perfectly understood my dear Admin,

Playing with a pink noise is much better to find bad resonances. Of course you can electronic tools on hand...but I was referring to the software and the mike where is used on those receivers. In 5 minutes, you have your sound perfectly balanced. The receivers send through the speakers some noises and the software decides hoy many dB increase or decrease for obtain a flat frequency response...I rather find the problems listening to the music...specially solo instruments or voices. You do know all this. Moving the speakers away from their back wall, and moving them pointing your seating position you can adjust the image...moving the front speakers one inch toward in or toward out, can produce a magical sound. Now, if you have a 5.1 system or bigger, your back and surround speakers should be playing with less level than the fronts and center. Playing with these, you can find a position of where you want to be seated at the event that you are listening. In a Stereo system, you can adjust the speakers position fo the best room standing waves cancellation. These standing waves are making to have usually a one bass note resonance...and this resonance is not the naturalness of the bass resonance. Using room corners treatment is the way to control the low frequency boundaries of the room. All rooms are different and take time to "tune" the room having the sense of the stage right there...These room resonances do not belong to the music, and could spoil the quality sound, making a dirty and not transparent sound. Here is where your ears tell you how your quality sound is.

I wish that I could express myself better regarding the position of the speakers. You can bend them (planar speakers are more sensitive to this) using their feet. Two or three threads of the back spikes (yes, everybody should us spikes on their speaker to clean up the bass) the whole speaker comes a little bit forward, offering much better focus, and moving them from their base tow in or tow out, you get the air between the musical instruments...

There are so many tricks of how to get the best of your system. As an example, we use big power supply amps. Have a listen before you do this. Have you tried to use two lugs of pine wood of 2X3X16 inches is a such way that all the lug is touching the cassis left side and right side, not the rubber feet. The first impression is that the bass went away...but keep listening...you will find that the robust and deep musical notes are there...but some bass notes were removed. The big transformer is vibrating at 60Hz of the line AC mains. This vibration is contaminating the bass notes around this 60 Hz...with those lugs, you tame that vibration and of course you clean up your quality sound...

Do this, is very inexpensive tweak and really clean the bass.

Happy listening!

[roberto]

Hola Chicos,
One of the things of being a music lover are the relationships that we develop with people that, without music, we would’ve NEVER EVEN MET!!!

Thanks for your kindness and patience with me.

Happy listening!!!

[Big Dog RJ]

G'day maties, from down unda.

We're back in lockdown again, thanks to two silly buggers running around in Sydney spreading the virus being positive and ruined our run of Melbourne having zero cases, until these two fools showed up in our state!
On the plus side, we're still flat out at work due to our business trade being essential! So, I've got these two days off and enjoying some fine tunes!

Just wanted to state that these amplifiers have really shifted dimensions after the full SE upgrades. It's awe-inspiring to experience the improvements every minute, every hour, and the three critical areas of improvement can be clearly defined:

1. Resolution and imaging- full 3D imaging and presence, it's uncanny! Very lifelike performance, especially on jazz ensembles, vocals, strings, piano and so on, simply superb!

2. The spacial cues- are even more detailed, the formation of the notes, the rise, decay, and acceleration are effortless, super fast, lighting speed with superb agility and control, no overhang and not overbearing whatsoever. Supremely Fantastic!

3. Overall quietness- provides a much greater depth in soundstage, darker background and every inch of the recording is captured, nothing left out I would say. This really stands out, thus allowing you to listen at softer levels with the full presentation, no need to turn up things at all. However, when things are turned up, oh boy! Get ready for an absolute thrill, what a rush, and surge of energy, as if a lightning bolt strikes. Marvellous!

So, I can now very clearly concur that the three main parts upgrades are a must if you wanted to achieve some serious level of improvement, to get your monies worth:
KT120's
Teflons
Vishays

If these three items are not part of the upgrades then don't do them because the overall quality is only half way there...
I believe those Teflons combined with the Vishays contributes to the most significant improvement in quality presentation of the way the recording was intended. It's really like a true reference. I don't really see anything further in terms of investment, which also included a few other tweaks/mods but this to me is SOTA! Can't get any better unless it were the top of the line ART series amplifiers.

I guess that's where the serious level of expenditure takes over. If anyone is considering SE upgrades on any of their gear, just make sure CJ tech/service is includes Teflons and Vishays, and a full array of both! This is mighty marvellous indeed!

Cheers to all, and do enjoy those fine tunes!
RJ

[Q3Di]

RJ,

My Premier 8A's have Teflon upgrade. I am not sure if they also have Vishay. I inquired Jeff to do upgrade to my ART2 Pre. It would be nice if I can bring it to the ART3 level. However, the upgrade cost is huge that I can use the funds to acquire a pre-owned GAT or ET7S2 (Jeff recommended me this one).

stay safe!

JD

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes, that sounds pretty much like a JF answer...
He would afterall like to move his product, which is the new line up by CJ. Rather than waste their time doing upgrades on much older gear, or should I say preoccupied for a better term. That would certainly make business sense.

However, as I've mentioned many times before, there's a particular type of sound that I prefer over the more squeaky clean neutral sound. If they had a newer version of the ACT2 based on the 6N30P tube, I would have grabbed it! After hearing the GAT and GATS2, plus keeping one version of the GAT in my system for nearly 4 months, although it was a superb preamp in every way, it just wasn't my type of custom sound I was looking for. And so I returned it to the rightful owner upon his return from overseas. Also that previous owner has now moved onto a full line up of VAC amplification to drive his ML Ren15a's. He's using VAC's top of the line monoblocks and they are absolutely outstanding! If ever I was to venture away from CJ, there are only two other amplifiers I would rather own, and that's Lamm Audio and VAC. They are truly top notch! Very pricey though.

I don't think the upgrade on the Prem8A's would include Vishays unless you requested specifically for them. The Teflons and KT120's are what most SE upgrades comprise of. If this were to include the full upgrade kit, which I got done on my monoblocks, then of course the cost is quite different but in my opinion worth it, simply because I just prefer that type of sound.

Now CJ has gone a completely different route, with the introduction of ET (enhanced triode) series, and the Classic and ART amplifiers. They're able to use simpler circuits, with different tube topologies and design configs, keeping the most natural tones as close as possible to the original recording. So this is a good thing!

CJ no longer offers the PV, MV, LP, MF or Premier series for that matter. Now with just a handful of carefully crafted products, they're aiming for the highend. That's Jeff's mission and he'll take it there, there's no doubt about that.

So, getting back to your original question about Teflons, Vishays and other top parts, it would make more sense to save up on funds and go for something newer. However, to me always newer doesn't necessarily mean it will sound better... it's a personal preference.

That's why without just upgrading for the sake of upgrading, I've always managed to get the best possible performance out of existing gear.

ONLY if and when I've reached the maximum performance possible, and there's another piece of gear that can clearly surpass the performance of my existing gear by a margin of 40% minimum, then I make the payment! If anything less than that, I'm not interested. Although I'd still like to listen to that gear once in awhile...

If I still owned the Prem8A's, I would upgrade those monoblocks as much as possible, for one thing they're legendary! No other amplifiers quite like them. The ART preamp was our very pride and joy in reference standards. It was one unbelievable preamp to have in any top notch system. It was bit big, due to its dual chassis but after a while that gets used to. It's just like having monoblocks but in a preamp version, like once when CJ had that supreme Premier 6 dual chassis, dual control preamp. It was a huge step up in performance and set the standards in preamplification in the audio industry.

Getting further SE upgrades on your ART towards a Series 3, is only something that you can determine. Whether it's worth the extra cost or not is upto you. If you were to play the GAT and ART side by side, you'd be quite surprised as to how different they sound. Both have superior control in top end to mid-band with superb control in the bass and LF's, however they're quite different. You might not like one over the other but after living with either one for a while, you'll begin to realise which one you actually prefer.

That's the very reason why I upgraded my CT5 beyond what it's capable of, and now performs pretty much like an ACT2 series 3, if ever one existed. Once again, it's a custom sound that I prefer. If down the line CJ does introduce a top line preamp that can surpass my particular modded CT5 by 40% and above, I'd deposit the money straight away! So far nothing has come close to 40%, let alone 15%... so nothing happening yet.

That combination you currently have, the ART preamp and Premier 8A monoblocks, that's one of a kind in SOTA! I wouldn't even bother with anything else, unless I had a serious case of upgrade itch... which I don't have!

Cheers mate, and enjoy those very fine tunes!
Woof!!! RJ

[Big Dog RJ]

G'day maties, trust everyone's enjoying those fine tunes!

Something that's the very essence of resolution, thought I'd share;
Just about the same time last week, I visited my good mate who also has CLX's driven by Pass Labs. It was another spiritual experience indeed! Oh boy, did that have plenty of fine detail and a very high level of resolution & transparency.

On this occasion though, the music selection was quite different. Not the jazz norm or well known labels I'm used to, rather a totally different twist. Music played on simple instruments, yet involves years to master, and these instruments being the native type to those cultures. I believe the Ud, and Haval (hope I spelled it right) and other percussion instruments that are used in conjunction with improvised melodies and explosive dynamics! Two types of music played from Greece and Turkey. The Greece performances by Tania G and her Trio, and accompanied trumpeter was like Miles Davis on steroids! His trumpet skills were effortless and the way in which he can twist and turn virtually in 90 degree angles is mesmerising! It was truly spectacular!
The other CD was by a Turkish musician, Coskun Karademir, oh my goodness gracious! What a performance!

This type of music is like from a different planet, a different dimension and a totally unique rendition of professional playing. It's powerful tones that are reproduced so effortlessly with fierce propulsion and then can drop to an absolute whisper in a blink of eye, is just superb!

This is exactly what I'm looking for and do enjoy the most. When Coskun plays he would start as normal modes then all of a sudden go into overdrive, like a V12 engine and then drop to a whisper in a flowing tune. This rendition and lighting speed that captures the very essence of his playing abilities is outstanding! There's no way to fault it whatsoever or there was absolutely nothing short of system resolution and very fine detail indeed!

So, with that experience I ordered 6 CDs of Coskun Karademir and his Quartet plus one other from Tania G and her Trio. The Turkish labels are on Kalan and can be ordered through Opus3a. The beauty of these CDs is basically two things:
1. The cost on Opus3a is absolutely affordable, very reasonable cost for shipping as well, unlike most other online orders.
2. These are normal standard CDs, not SACD's or any fancy stuff, just plain good recordings.

This leads to my final point, and that is once the system has been put together thoughtfully with careful component selection, it will reach a certain threshold. From that point onwards it can only deliver what's on the recording. Hence, if the recording is not that great and somewhat mediocre then that's exactly what you're going to get! However, if the recording is done in the simplest manner possible, without too many overdubs and gizmos, you will hear a very fine level of detail along with a high level of resolution.
Therefore, I believe it's not just the system that plays a part in this, it's also the source and format, without a doubt.

At the moment, I'm enjoying this particular LP as I'm typing this, and this particular recording also has a fine combination of resolution and detail. The system obviously adds to further refinement in depth and transparency, it's just a beautiful thing!
Cheers to Coskun Karademir and Tania's Trio, my new found passion in extraordinary music!
A massive woofty woof!!!
RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

FWIW (not much, I know), the Revel F228Bes that I touted earlier in this thread are now rated “Class A” by Stereophile, and have gone up in price. They really are a pair of as good as I’ve ever heard, even against $60k to $120k competition. MSRP is now $11k, and I still consider them to be a bargain.

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes, pretty much everything is going up in price!
That's the best part of our hobby / passion, when you can get hold of something of great value, you'll realise even more of how good it is after it's gone!

That's why I keep saying, just hold on to what you've got! Afterall, it's a great achievement and effort to get this far... if finances permit, you can certainly venture towards more loftier gear.

In the meantime, just sit back and enjoy those fine tunes!
Cheers to all and keep safe, RJ

[Big Dog RJ]

Well folks I've done the cardinal sin... what I'm totally against using... have ventured off to the dark side of the force.

This is just superb!!! Outstanding in every regard of the term integration. Impeccable quality and superb craftsmanship. It's truly a game changer for me but I also like the CLX's full range on certain recordings. This is never overpowering and adds a level of LF finesse like no other, just extraordinary!

Cheers & a big woof'n!
RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

That looks like the very one I sold a month or three ago.

I wonder if it made it to Oz … three clicks of the toes of the Ruby slippers takes you there. Three clicks of the heels snd you end up in old Martin Logan home (Kansas).

I think the BF series really was designed as the perfect complement to the CLX. It will give you more believable low bass for sure.

Great to HEAR … literally.


And, of course, “The Thread Too Great to Die” gains new life. . (I was worried)

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes, without a doubt!
Thanks maties, always good to receive sincere advice from fellow members who've followed the journey...

Another adjustment we carried out on the custom low pass filters were actually done using vocals and mid bass tunes, not so much low bass. By doing this, we were able to fine tune the overall subs response to the full freq spec, not just the lows. By doing this, it allows the mids & highs to operate freely, open and fully transparent. Most of the time, when subs are added to panels and when you listen to vocals or mids, it's as if the singer is singing behind a curtain... or getting strangled. This is due to the excessive bass energy resonating within cabinets, and it's very noticeable.

That's why when most people listen to panels at first, they immediately call out "no bass!" Simply because it doesn't have those reinforced resonances. So, whenever a sub does this, I can't stand it and its definitely artificial. However, with the BF series from Martin Logan, their low pass filters and settings are so accurate, it's just a pleasure to set according to your room dimensions/ environment, and it doesn't require pulling your hair out!

I'm really impressed with their design, and their dsp engines and software capabilities, especially with the ARC software and PBK modules. These really help towards that extra edge in integration. It's no wonder they sell these alongside the CLX's as one combination, which I never bothered about until now! Better late than ever I guess.

Woofty woof'n!
RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

True bucket list end game!

Don’t peak too soon… you’re still young .

[AnotherJohnson]

I note that RJ’s choice of location for his BF210 is the same as I eventually settled on when trying to run the BF210 with my Revel and B&W monitors as well as with my Revel floor standers.

It looks like he is also running the BF210 from the preamp rather than off the speakers. It is nice that the BF210 is so versatile… I think the true home for the BF210 is when it is paired with the Theos, Classic 9s, or ultimately with the CLX Arts as RJ and Bobby enjoy. I think the on board amps of the other ML choices make matching harder, but the PBK and ARC (Anthem ARC) can clear these problems away.

The Sabrinas that I am currently running go down to about 30 Hz. On vinyl, there is little music that makes a sub necessary… but my old Theos based speaker set up with BF210 precipitated many positive comments about how well the sub was blended in.

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes, that's correct mate! The very reason to place it in the middle was mainly based on two points:
1. To gel with the CLX's as one set piece.
2. The BF bass affect moves faster and more freely with greater sense of speed, when given ample room for it to breathe.

I've tried others in corners, along the sides, behind listening areas etc., there's always some sort of overhang present and it gets very annoying. That was one of the biggest problems I had with subs, hence my delayed time of 3 years to find the right one.

Using subs with ML's powered hybrids is definitely a tricky thing. The new Masterpiece line already utilises the BF sub technology, so adding more to it... I'm not too sure if that's a good solution. The 11A, 13A and 15A have dual bass drivers, arranged in a front-to-rear configuration. Each hybrid model has its dedicated power supply and Class D amps built-in, so to me this is more than adequate. All three models are designed with real power and impact in the bass, adding more bass is just nuts! Unless the room was huge, in which case the Neoliths offer a solution.

Last Wednesday when I auditioned the 11A's driven by a top tier Vitus Class A amplifier, I had to yell out to the chap to turn down the bass controls, the whole damn room was shaking! If anyone wants more LF power than that, either they're plain deaf or have far too much wax in their ears.

Anyway, it was a great demo and I must say the Vitus amplifier did a fine job! Another outstanding amp but a pricey one though. This is close to Dartzeel territory, which is my all time favourite in SS design. Just superb!

Cheers maties, and do enjoy those fine tunes!
Woof, RJ

[admin]

I demoed the 13A and 15A awhile back. Really outstanding speakers . ML has really perfected the stat and woofer design integration.

With that said. I still think the CLXs are something extra special and not sure why ML decided to discontinue the line.

[AnotherJohnson]

I demoed the 13A and 15A awhile back. Really outstanding speakers . ML has really perfected the stat and woofer design integration.

With that said. I still think the CLXs are something extra special and not sure why ML decided to discontinue the line.

The integration of the active digital amp cones with the stat panels has never sounded right to me. It is not the cone integration. It is the onboard digital amp integration.

Just think about the idea of matching a stat panel driven by a 108A, with a cone driven by a class D captive amp.