Second try to share current systems

[AnotherJohnson]

I've been at this literally since 1975. In the mid 80s I had a small part time dealership run out of my living room with just a handful of high end product lines. I've done repair work on electronics, and I'm especially fond of turntables.

I say these things as a preface to the comment that I've had a lot of systems over the years. One of my early mentors told me that you should not plan to keep anything for more than a few years because once it falls out of favor, the value will fall like a rock. There's some truth to this, but if you buy the best product from ionic companies like McIntosh, Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, and even Linn's turntable line, the products eventually reach a plateau and further depreciation may actually reverse and become appreciation.

In any event, at the present time I've got three systems going, along with several extra turntables and some extra speakers.

The first system is in a state of flux as I am trading some gear right now, and so I'm going to describe what will be in about 10 days rather than what is today.

A high spec Linn LP12 with Ekos SE and Lyra Etna; TEA1; ET7 series 2; LP275Ms; Revel F228Bes. Other sources in this system are a Denon 3 head cassette deck from back in the day and a Marantz SA-KI Ruby SACD player.

The second system has another Linn LP12 as the front end. This one is upgraded about to the midpoint of the product range. The arm is an Ittok series 2, and the cartridge is a Lyra Kleos. The phono preamp is a TEA2MAX; Preamp is an Audio Research SP20. Amp is an MF2550SE. Speakers are Revel F208s. The other source in this system is a Marantz SA8005 SACD.

The third system is turntable free, although I've got two additional turntables that are in excellent condition in the shop. I just don't use that system for vinyl, so there's no need to run a TT there. The front end is another SA8005 Marantz CD player. The signal goes to the conrad-johnson CA150 control amplifier which is an incredible bit of kit and an exceptional value on the used market. The speakers are Revel M126Bes on M16 stands.

I am especially proud of the Linn LP12s. I built them both from the ground up with parts from a dealer friend in the UK.

In system 1, the plinth is from a 900 year old oak tree harvested on the grounds of the Woburn Abbey near Leicester. It was built by Chris Harban and finished by the ammonia fuming method favored by Gustav Stickley early in the 20th century. The subchassis is the Keel. The motor and controller are the Radikal DC kit. It has the Cirkus bearing and inner platter. It sits on the Trampoline 2. The tonearm cable is the latest spec Linn cable. The Ekos SE is the longer head shell version. And the Lyra Etna cartridge is the most realistic extractor of information from vinyl grooves that I've ever had the pleasure of experiencing.

In system 2, the plinth is a late 80's Greeves of Sheffield model. I think it is Afromosia, but it could be Walnut. It is fluted. The subchassis is the Kore. The motor and controller are the DC kit developed by Edmund (he calls it the Mober), a fellow in Hong Kong (and it sounds surprisingly nice). It has the Cirkus bearing and inner platter too. The platform is just the basic stock bottom ... I may add a Trampoline 2, but have not done so at this point. The tonearm cable is an earlier iteration of the Linn family. The Ittok mk 2 arm is quite a bit stouter than the first version. The arm pillar is an inch in diameter. I've modified the head shell to accommodate the Linn favored 3 screw cartridge mounting system. The Lyra Kleos cartridge is very easy to listen to. It does nothing obviously wrong. It is only inferior when in direct comparison to something like the Etna. Until I got the Etna, I was in audio nirvana with the Kleos.

In all my systems I primarily use AudioQuest MacKenzie interconnects. And all my speaker wires are home brewed of cut to custom length, multi strand OFC, 12 gauge copper, with Nakamichi solderless banana plugs.

I've always loved conrad-johnson gear. Sometimes I wish that they would be more feature driven, like including balanced inputs and outputs. But if I had to choose between focusing on the best sound and focusing on the best features, I would choose the sound every time. I don't listen to features. I listen to music. And we keep coming back to the conrad-johnson motto. It really does just sound right.

[admin]

Thanks for the description. Sounds like you've built some incredible setups. Any chance you could post some pictures. I would especially love to see what the plinths on the turntables look like.

I also sometimes wish that CJ had more "features". However, I think the reason why they sound so good is the simplicity of their design. My hometheater receiver has over a dozen sounds modes, can change the level and equalizer for each one, yet doesn't even come close to what my stereo setup sounds like.

[AnotherJohnson]

I also sometimes wish that CJ had more "features". However, I think the reason why they sound so good is the simplicity of their design. My hometheater receiver has over a dozen sounds modes, can change the level and equalizer for each one, yet doesn't even come close to what my stereo setup sounds like.

I agree. I think the simplicity of the circuits and the quality of the topology and the parts and the skill of the build just all come together to make a unique product.

There's a reason that the lowly PV5 was actually the reference preamp for many reviewers back 35 years ago. If you put a decent front end on it, and a decent amp and speaker pair, the PV5 still shines with a holographic sound stage. CJ definitely has a signature sound. I wish that more dealers were capable of showing it off. Spearit used to be willing to send you CJ gear on trial so you could hear it for yourself without having to come to Northhampton, MA. They had a great inventory and moved a lot of product.

[AnotherJohnson]

Well, no sooner does one brag about something (my beloved LP12 turntables) than Linn comes along and changes stuff.
I got to thinking about Linn after writing the above, and I did a search on Audiogon for Linn LP12 to get a current sense of the market.
Up came a 40th anniversary LP12 still unassembled in boxes, along with the 40 year old scotch (now 46 years old, although bottle aging doesn't count).

No, I did not decide I wanted it ... at $40k, it's not in my vinyl budget. But I did decide that the ad was interesting. For example, the plinths are made of old scotch aging barrels, which means they may have started out as old bourbon aging barrels since often the barrels used for scotch are barrels that were first used in Kentucky.

I'm suspicious that this set of boxes might have "fallen off the truck in 2014 and are now just cool enough to pick up" because the dealers are not supposed to sell you unassembled Linn gear. So, I shared the ad with my friend in the UK (just for the interest level, not to report it - it is, after all, an unusual find here in 2020).

He responded with updates about their COVID19 situation, and what's going on over there. He casually mentioned that he is very busy now installing the new Karousel bearings. Karousel bearings? Never heard of 'em. Sigh...

So ... Linn have replaced the Cirkus bearing with the Karousel, and now I am wondering if I shouldn't at least try one in my high spec LP12. The LP12 is a great turntable in just about any level if it's been set up right. If it hasn't been set up right, no amount of upgrading will improve things much. I could have lived happily never knowing about the Karousel upgrade, but now that I know, my curiosity is piqued. I sure wish I could audition one before ordering. Any audition would require travel because of the paucity of dealers in North America.

Now I'll have to go through the drama of seeing if I can find a dealer who will sell the kit to me uninstalled. I've been "fettling LP12s" for over 30 years, I've got the set up jig and the tools, I've got a stock of parts including maintenance items like springs and oil, and I don't trust many people to touch mine because there are so few here who actually understand how to get them right. Also, I do not want to get into shipping an LP12. To have a dealer install the kit would mean a round trip to Ann Arbor, and that would take the best part of 5 days and four nights on the road if the work were scheduled in advance.

I guess all this reinforces our understanding of why vinyl is a labor of love that only those who grew up in the vinyl era can understand.

[admin]

"Vinyl is a labor of love." I completely agree with this. I listen mostly to digital sources but have a great appreciation for the vinyl sound. But it is cumbersome, expensive, and laborious. But it does have a unique sound that is just impossible to replicate with digital sources.

The LP12 is such a classic player. I wonder if the new upgrades offer significant improvements?

[AnotherJohnson]

I wonder if the new upgrades offer significant improvements?

Boy, that’s the question of the day, isn’t it.

How can we continue to get better sound when Edison was able to fool people into thinking his cylinders were actual bands in the next room? It seems impossible.

And yet here we are.

I think the answer is that long ago we crossed the threshold of decent sound reproduction. Our standard of listening is a huge factor. We listen critically, and discern differences, important to some, not important to others.

I have no doubt that in a side by side comparison in a good system, between two properly set up LP12s, a discerning listener could hear differences on some program material.

Would these differences be important? I dunno...

Probably not to many listeners. My wife, for example. She has the uncanny ability to hear differences, and couldn’t care less. She likes to boogie, not analyze.

The cost to buy the parts is about $1000US, so if that’s a lot in your system, maybe it would be a waste. Since I’ve sort of committed to a high spec LP12, it’s very reasonable to me. It will take me about 3 hours to sort it out. I’ll replace springs and belt while I’m at it.

The Karousel is scarce right now, but “one will be on the way to my workbench next week.”

[admin]

Well said. Of course it's an never ending weighting of pros and cons. I used to have a nice little Rega Planar 3 turntable with a dynevector 10x5 cartridge. It was a good intro into vinyl as I was listening almost exclusively to digital at that point. I was very content with this modest setup until my local high end audio store got a used (but new condition) ELP laser turntable in stock. I really liked the sound and it was certainly a significant upgrade in the sound. I was able to buy it for a small fraction of the MSRP so I was very fortunate. There some cool things you an do with it like adjust the reading by groove depth. This can sometimes significantly improve the sound from worn records. Has some downsides such as not being able to read transparent or some colored vinyl... but overall still cool. It's also nice to know that you are not wearing the grooves out by simply listening to the record.

[AnotherJohnson]

I was very content with this modest setup until my local high end audio store got a used (but new condition) ELP laser turntable in stock.

I would love to try something like that. It sounds like engineers’ Nirvana (I’m a retired engineering prof).

[Big Dog RJ]

"Vinyl is a labor of love." I completely agree with this. I listen mostly to digital sources but have a great appreciation for the vinyl sound. But it is cumbersome, expensive, and laborious. But it does have a unique sound that is just impossible to replicate with digital sources.

The LP12 is such a classic player. I wonder if the new upgrades offer significant improvements?

Not really too much of a hassle Admin, nor is it laborious or cumbersome or expensive depending on the type of TT / analog rig you have...

Over the years, back in the hey day, when we had the Apogee Divas driven by the CJ ART preamp and premier 8A monoblocks, we were using two very highly regarded TT's. One was the Michell gyrodeck and the other was the Michell orb. It was a special design that came out around 1998, which we placed a custom order to be installed in our reference system. Now, that was laborious, cumbersome and always fiddly... plus expensive!

Pass on a decade and digital took over so we promoted high-end DACs and digital transports. Wadia, Meitner, Aragon, Audio Alchemy and Cambridge Audio were our top sellers. In fact our personal reference system was none other than CJ's DV2b CD player, I really loved that thing! It was a beauty, plus with a pair of tubes in the output stage, it was far more analog than digital.

Now fast fwd to 2019/2020, I nearly gave up on TT's but went after simplicity, no fuss and no muss! So after trying out and auditioning a few, such as Michell engineering gyrodecks & Orb, Music Hall 11.1, Linn LP12, McIntosh MT series, amongst a few Roksans and Thorens, plus the VPI's, I eventually settled on Rega TT's. Starting somewhere around 2013, with a RP3 using the top of the line MM cartridge by Ortofon, which was the 2MBlack, it was marvelous! And so my decision to fully embrace the analog rig once again. Especially with CJ amplifiers, full range stats and tubes, it is so engaging there's absolutely no so called bad day of listening unlike certain digital recordings...

Having this particular TT and analog rig with TEA2SE, I couldn't be any happier, now with the RP8. Not a whole lot of adjusting at all, just make sure the cartridge is a fine MC that will match with your preamp and fine tune the gain structure to perfection (impedence, loading & gain), and everything falls into place very nicely.

I'm not saying digital is no good or mediocre but vinyl is just different, always will be and always has been. There's just some magic that takes place when that stylus hits the grooves... and reproduced through CJ gear and highly transparent speakers, is a pristine level of musicality.

I truly hope one day you will venture into TT's, you won't regret it! There are also fine quality recordings available compared to the early years, and these are now available in various pressings and formats. You can also custom make the sound you prefer through the careful selection of your cartridge and type of phonostage you prefer with the required gain settings. At the end of the day it's a special kind of synergy between the analog rig and the rest of the gear, you simply can't do that with digital.

Btw, if you want to get more hands on, which I believe you don't... the Linn is a superb TT that you can conduct virtually endless upgrades on, and it enhances its performance each time a subtle change is made. My good mate who introduced me back into ML stats uses one with an Allnic phonostage and Pass Labs amplifiers to drive his CLX's, it's outstanding!

Cheers to TT's!
Best, RJ

[admin]

Hi JR,

Didn't mean to imply that it was overly difficult to get into vinyl, just that comparative to digital it does have a much bigger buy-in. This is not in itself good or bad. I think that digital has made it easier and cheaper (but not necessarily better). Vinyl has seen a resurgence in the last few years and they are selling them at regular shopping malls. However, I've noticed that the same album on vinyl costs 2-3x as much CD, and let's not even compare streaming which is pretty much anything you want for a month at lower price than a single vinyl album.

I enjoy listening to vinyl and digital. For some reason, most of my time is spent in the digital world. But that also seems to vary a bit. There have been times where I find some great LP's and the ratio swings back to more analog.

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes fair point Admin.

In fact, vinyl costing more than CDs... actually way more, especially when it comes to Audiophile reference recordings. Labels on MoFi, Yalum (however you spell it), Groove Works, ECM, and the top stuff from Quality Reference Recordings and FIM pressings, all cost a pretty penny! Over the top in pricing but the reproduction in quality is superb!

I've managed to find another store, called Dutch vinyl, fairly close, about half hour drive, in fact closer to where we previously lived. They've got some very nice pressings for much more realistic prices compared to the ARR store I still source nearly all my LPs from.

The thing is, I don't believe shopping malls sell the high quality/ high grade stuff. I really wouldn't dump my hard earned $$ on those mainstream stores. You have to be weary of the labels and recordings, just because it's vinyl doesn't mean it's going to sound any good when taken for a spin... some are down right awful, poorly recorded, and I'm now well aware of those labels.

At least digital can be listened to even if it's bad... that is you can get away with average recordings, and highly compressed stuff and still enjoy the music. On vinyl you simply cannot listen to a poorly or average recordings, it just doesn't sound right.
And CJ gear certainly knows when it just sounds right!

Cheers mate, enjoy those fine tunes.
RJ

[admin]

100% agree with you RJ. The quality of vinyl varies substantially and it is difficult to source good material. Unfortunately, there are very few "music stores" in my area. More precisely, they don't even exist outside of large cities.

When I am talking about "getting into vinyl" or "bigger buy-in", I'm really talking about the younger generation that is starting to dip their toes into hi-end audio. The sad truth is that when I go to my local audiophile store for demos or gatherings, the average age is probably around 60 with few or any young people (ie teens, twenties, or even thirties). This is the next generation. This is the age group that I started getting into the hobby. And at that time spending a few hundred dollars was a pretty big deal. As I've aged and the bank account has grown, it's much easier to justify spending thousands on a new piece of equipment. I worry that when faced with a choice of $20 a month for unlimited streaming of 40 million songs vs a single LP that costs more, are the newer generations going to take that leap? There is a lot of pressure on the few remaining hi-end audio stores to even stay open. For example, the closest CJ dealer in my area recently closed and even they were over an hour's drive from my home.

I think the two biggest changes in audio in the last 40 years have been the introduction of 1) CD and 2) Streaming. Yeah, speakers are better, amps more refined, etc... but these two have fundamentally changed how people listen to music. Some aspects for the better, some to the worse, and some just different. I think ultimately streaming will have the biggest influence as the price is so low which means it will attract large groups of people.

[AnotherJohnson]

Some of my favorite recordings are now either 60* year old originals, or 35+ year old reissues.

Used record stores can be treasure troves. But you do need a decent cleaning machine.

Harry Weisfeld has told me that with vigorous cleaning, even seemingly shot vinyl can be resurrected. I’ve never ventured farther than an HW17. Nowadays I routinely use a Nitty Gritty 2.5FI st one house, and a VPI HW16.5 at the other.

[AnotherJohnson]

I think I’ve converged on potentially long term local optima for my three systems.

The main system, working forward from sources, is a high spec LP12 with Lyra Etna and TEA1, and a Marantz SA-KI Ruby SACD player. The preamp is an ET7s2. The amps are a pair of LP275Ms. The speakers are a pair of Revel F228Bes.

The second is now a mid spec LP12 with Mober DC motor and speed controller, Lyra Kleos, and TEA2MAX HG. The SACD player is a Marantz SA8005. I am running a Marantz PM-KI Integrated amp, driving a pair of stand mounted Revel M126Bes.

The third is another Marantz SA8005 feeding a CA150, driving a pair of Revel F208s.

On the shelf for now are the MF2550SE and the ARC SP20 ... both too good for the shelf, so maybe there is a fourth system in my future.

This scheme allows me to keep vinyl at one house and only transport CDs between houses.

All three systems are very musical. I suppose I ought to try the SA-KI and PM-KI together in one system as Ken Ishiwata had intended, so maybe things will go through another iteration ... but not any time soon.

[Big Dog RJ]

Hey AJ,
Very fine gear you got there, especially the multiple systems going...

Two questions for you:
1. Why did you choose those Revels? F228Bes Performa series. How did you end up with this particular choice? And what other speakers did you evaluate before deciding on this model?

2. How do you find the Marantz SA KI Ruby Sacd player?
Again, what did you evaluate these against and how did you arrive at the SA KI Ruby?

Both of these components are fine equipment, in fact they were on my short at point in time ... but things changed. Long story no point going there, just wanted to learn from your experience.

I know this seems more than two questions... It's always a learning curve for me when others start out way back in the 70's / early 80's and have put together various systems to arrive at a particular custom sound. However, having three systems to run and maintain must be as good as owning a highend audio store! Nice one!

Keep those fine tunes playing.
RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

1. Why did you choose those Revels? F228Bes Performa series. How did you end up with this particular choice? And what other speakers did you evaluate before deciding on this model?

I'm pretty fickle. I am pretty much hardwired into various dealer friends around the country. I listen to speakers with my own program material but they never sound the same at the showroom (with their electronics, typically McIntosh, their cabling, their room, and their sources) compared to home.

In this particular case, I've converged on an all Revel set up, and not the high end Revel, but the medium lineup, based on my ears at the showroom, confirmed by my home installation. I did also audition (in this Revel journey of maybe the last two years) comparably priced and more expensive Golden Ear, B&W, Martin Logan and Wilson. And, in fact, when I do go by the showroom of my primary dealership, I nearly always listen to a wide range of gear with my old friends who hope that my interest will be piqued and there may be a sale in the offing. Sometimes there is.

It is serendipitous I suppose that I actually really really like the F228Be and the M126Be for their focus, linearity, snap, and detail. And I like the F208 for its romance and lyricism. The startling thing about the Be series is that it really gives you a serious head start in peeling the layers of the onion that comprise most recordings. The CJ electronics specialize in defining space around voices and instruments. The Be series is like giving them a steroid shot.

I would have also liked the Martin Logan Classic 9s for at least one system, but their Wife Acceptance Factor is very low compared to the Revels. She loves the sound of the ML, but she loves the sound of the Revels too. She has a hard time accepting the look of the ML hybrids, so I didn't press the issue. Why the Classic 9 and not something in the higher end of the ML lineup? Because with the Classic 9, like the Theos that I owned for several years when my wife was less set on the idea that she did not like their appearance, I can provide my own amplifier to run the bass drivers. I am not a fan of the onboard amps compared to what I can put together myself.

Another factor is the speaker weight. Two of my rooms are on second floors, and it is hard to move stuff in and remove it once the weight gets up close to and beyond 100 pounds. Since I tend to churn my gear, this is a factor ... and a greater factor today than when I was young.

And another factor is my pricing. Suffice it to say that at my price point, nothing out there comes close to the Revels. Dollar for dollar, and note for note, the F228Be and the M126Be would be awfully hard to beat in my situation.

2. How do you find the Marantz SA KI Ruby Sacd player?
Again, what did you evaluate these against and how did you arrive at the SA KI Ruby?

I may not be as analytical as you. I liked Ken Ishiwata and was sad to see him sacked at Marantz. I also was very sad to learn of his passing six months later. Ken always delivered very smooth sound. It is hard today to get to audition CD or SACD players. Many dealers just have low end stuff, or have condemned the lot of them to the dust bin of audio history.

So ... when I decided I'd like to add another SACD player, I called a friend, told him what I wanted, and he was able to get me one at an exceptional price. They liked mine so much, they ordered a second and it is now in the showroom in one of the McIntosh - Wilson flagship systems.

I can say without hesitation that I've never heard any other CD player that made me think of the very best vinyl that I've ever heard. I am very impressed with Ken's final project ... so much so that I picked up the PM-KI too, and have been surprised at how nice that pairs with one of my SA8005s. I may try the PM-KI and SA-KI together, just to see what Ken really had in mind. What do I like best about it? Again, it is that rare ability to let the CJ electronics do their job unhindered. The air around instruments and voices is like the Linn - Etna - TEA1 on many recordings. I think this is the sort of effect that Ken Ishiwata was going for, but I did not read this until after I'd already decided that this was what he'd accomplished. Finally a CD player that can go head to head against the best vinyl reproduction if the program materials are up to it.

In any event, I tend to buy stuff with an idea toward the potential maximum foreseeable loss. I may keep stuff for a longer period, but old habits die hard, and I tend to trade or sell stuff as part of my commitment to the hobby.

I think this all goes back to when I was running the high end dealership out of my house 35 years ago.

If it sounds good, it is good. Simple as that. FWIW, my first serious dip into the high end was McIntosh tube gear. But when I discovered CJ in the mid '80s, that love affair was all over.

[Big Dog RJ]

Nice one AJ, great history mate.

Not just an audio journey but a solid time of wealth and knowledge, which only a handful have acquired nowadays.

I must say, absolute spot on the ML Classic 9, it's a superb hybrid VFM to the core! Previous to the CLX's I had the Ethos, driven by the CAV45, it was marvelous! Obviously things changed later on within a fairly short term as my dream system was accomplished with the CLX's, and so I ventured back towards the pre-power config.

I actually had the following three CD/SACD players on my short list after trying out a lengthy line up, which included an ARC Ref series player, the most expensive out the lot! Sadly it didn't make the cut... never really cared for ARC gear other than a few Reference amplifiers which drove the Quads ok.

My shortlist final three CD/SACD players were:
1. T+A PDP 3000HV (which I think has been replaced by the 3100HV multimedia player as of now).
2. Marantz KI series (can't remember the exact one but it was top of the line at the time).
3. Cary Audio CD303, I think it was.

This is going back a while towards 2013... then I reviewed this list again in 2017, and ended up with none of the above, rather it was a McIntosh MCD301. Long story... but will eventually end up with the T+A in time to come. It's a phenomenal product! Nothing like I've ever heard nor come across, built like a tank, rock solid and plays mighty fine!

The only thing as of recently is that I'm really enjoying vinyl once again, hence that digital upgrade may be slim...

My very good mate, who also happens to have the Linn TT, Allnic phono-preamp, Leben pre & Pass Labs amplifier, with his CLX's as well, is currently using one of these T+A CD/SACD playback systems, it is outstanding!
I believe the model he has is the PDP 3000HV, Costs an awful lot but was very fortunate to have picked one up during the time our $AUD was much stronger. Now it's a disaster and these units coming out of Germany cost a fortune!

Agree on the Revels, one of those rare dynamic types that are well made, well designed and very well built. When the dynamic driver types are well made and the driver arrays are well executed, from the very first note you will notice if they've got it right!

Would've been nice to hear your different systems and learn a few things. Certainly great to see some fine CJ amplification in there!

Cheers mate, enjoy the music.
RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

I’m really torn about setting the MF2550SE and SP20 on the shelf. I suspect they will come back in at some point.

I’ve always wondered what vertically biamping a pair of MF2550SEs would be like ... but the Revels are so easy to drive, I’m ambivalent about bothering. The ML Theos definitely sounded better with two Krells than with one, but one MF2550SE did just as well. It’s a great amp and a bargain if you can find one.

[AnotherJohnson]

Glad I have the MF2550SE and SP20 on the shelf. I am going to use them while the CA150 is being turned into a CA150SE at CJ over the next two weeks. I knew they would come back into a system.

[Big Dog RJ]

Good to know that CJ can do the SE upgrade on the CA150.
I was under the impression that they don't offer it on this particular amplifier, hence I was not aware.

I'm sure after the SE upgrade is done, it should sound marvellous! Let us know how it goes, this would be a worthwhile upgrade from the CA200, which was a fine integrated amplifier. It did everything right and also had ample power, good current stability and very good control.

It's definitely a shame these amplifiers are no longer offered. To be able to afford a high quality amplifier that could deliver a very high-end performance, one that is SS and did a marvellous job in terms of amplification, the CA200 & CA150 was all you ever needed. The few lucky owners who still have theirs are fortunate enough. These are now collectors items I guess, very rare gear.

Cheers, RJ