PCC88s vs 6922s

[Big Dog RJ]

Well looks like just about the same time last year, I replaced the signal tubes on the monoblocks. Just as I finished posting those two last posts on the PV14L and the Prem8's... during my late night listening it started again...

This time, it was the left channel, a raspy noise similar to sandpaper rubbing on wood. Straight away I knew it was one of those small fella but which one? So the investigation commenced, tubes were swapped and changed over. Didn't take too long to find the culprit! It was one of the Mullards M8080 tubes. Luckily I had a brand new pair and so replaced both. In the interim of the search & destroy mission, I also swapped out the GGL's E88CC's with EH6922's. So there didn't seem to be any issues with the Gold Lions on this occasion, though I initially thought they were the culprits...

Upon installation and powering back on, something fundamentally changed. It seems that the midrange on the EH tubes are phenomenally correct. That is very smooth, nicely open and laid out, and the resolution is perfect! Then perhaps those SE upgrades done on the monoblocks are shifting up another level, I don't know... whatever it is something has improved by a further 5%.

Then again, perhaps it's those NOS Mullards not sure. However, there is a definite area where the GGL''s are superior and that is in the LF. The bass is much more solid, with a tight grip and that lively punch to it. I would say both the EH and Genalex are fantastic tubes but for now I'm just enjoying the EH just the way they are.

Tomorrow night I'll swap back to the Genalex just to be sure that I've properly used its remaining hours for what it's worth. Since I paid a fair price for the pair, might as well use them to the max without early retirement.

Cheers to both EH & Genalex, they do deliver some fine tunes!
Woofty woof'n!!! RJ

[admin]

Glad it was an easy fix. At least it won't be a crazy expensive fix. Always good to have a spare set of tubes.

[Big Dog RJ]

Cheers Admin,
Just switched back to the GGL's as I'm typing this... and all is mighty fine!
I'll most probably keep these in for a while as I've got just one more pair of NOS Genalex 6922's left. The other good ones being the new EH tubes.

I would need to reorder one more set of Mullards, as I'm down to the very last pair, which are actually in the amplifiers at the moment.

We'll see how it goes, thanks to Covid, orders and shipping have really slowed down. Better place an order in soon not knowing when it's going through. Delivery will take a few months the least.

Cheers mate, have a good one
RJ

[admin]

BTW I recently did a purchase from thetubestore.com and they were really great. I had some questions and they were helpful and quick to respond via email. Good customer service. Not sure how much shipping is to downunder?

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes, I've ordered from Tube store before, and definitely great service. Items arrived within 3 business days. As for shipping charges, it depends on which route: FedEx express 3-4 business days plus tracking, was close to $60 or $70 somewhere thereabouts. They do have normal rates which are lower but it takes much longer, typically 2 weeks via normal route.

Apart from their shipping costs, there are added costs for custom orders- low microphonics, low noise, balanced... which adds to the total cost. So it can get close to $200 in total charges just for a pair of signal tubes. I guess that's the price we pay for down unda.

What I meant about long wait times is if ever I place orders from CJ via our Aus importer. That takes months... both ends are slow as. One end is busy selling to local customers, whiles the other end is busy producing new gear... then whenever I make a call, they go "oh! Yeah we'll get to it right away" and already a month has passed... you get my point.

By the time both parties have had tea and some cake, the other supplier's items have already arrived at my door within 4 days!

On the plus side though, the reliability factor is slightly better when dealing with CJ and the importer or maybe it's a psychological thing, don't know.

I'm thinking of placing an order through Tube Store again, a bit weary of counterfeit Mullards & Genalexs floating around... I was told. Again not sure if the sources are reliable either.
I'll need to check on a few things before deciding.

Has anyone tried Watford in the UK? I've heard very positive feedback, just wanted to check if any CJO members have done business with them for any of your gear.
Cheers, RJ

[admin]

I know that thetubestore standard shipping rate is $10, but I'm sure it's more for international. I don't know why international shipping is so expensive but I've had to ship some things in the past year and it has always been absolutely ridiculous, especially if you want it to be delivered in a reasonable time frame.

[Big Dog RJ]

So now since my last post about the Mullards M8080 change over... (which was just last week) looks like another 6922 /E88CC Genalex Gold Lion just went funny. Upon power up within the first 5secs weird white flash, as if something was cooking on the stove. No sound though, no sputtering or anything, unlike input tubes, rather just white flashes.

After about 20secs it settled down and seemed to behave as normal. However, I didn't play any tunes, rather pulled them out and changed over to EH6922 (Electro Harmonix) driver tubes. Now all is well!

Think I'll just stick with the EH6922's for now, as I'm on my very last pair of GGL's. Perhaps I'll change back to GGL's once I do an output tube change over.

Anyone else come across these white flashes in their driver tubes? Looks like it mostly happens with Genalex tubes in my experience. Maybe I'm wrong, not sure... anyway, no point pondering too much as long as those fine tunes are playing!

Cheers, RJ

[roberto]

Sometimes the filament might glow more...there is kind of gas that lit, and no harm. Try it again...to me, it looks. normal behaviour. Is the tube making funny noises? Is there a degradation of the sound quality? Do you hear any imbalance between the channels?

If make you happy to use other is ok.

Happy listening!

[roberto]

RJ, listen to this recording...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiARr9J ... M&index=13

[roberto]

Here is another for you AJ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfWfZwK ... iM&index=7

[Joe Appierto]

Hi RJ,

I did a search on Gold Lion 6922 and white flash and came across this posting on the What's Best Forum that you'll recognize (this is just the opening paragraph):

"It has been a while since I've had a tube failure in a short span of time, and this time it was not one but two! Virtually died off around the same time. These were the EH 6922's ordered previously for the CJ LP125m monoblocks, and installed in Aug. Just about early Oct they both conked off. One had a very bright white flash and remained that way, as if something was cooking on high flame, the other was noisy and un-listenable. So it was time for a re-order."

Since this seems to have happened with both the 6922EH and the Gold Lion 6922s do you think it could be some kind of anomaly with the amps causing the white flashes?

Just guessing here.

Regards,
Joe

[XCop5089]

Yes, I've ordered from Tube store before, and definitely great service. Items arrived within 3 business days. As for shipping charges, it depends on which route: FedEx express 3-4 business days plus tracking, was close to $60 or $70 somewhere thereabouts. They do have normal rates which are lower but it takes much longer, typically 2 weeks via normal route.

Apart from their shipping costs, there are added costs for custom orders- low microphonics, low noise, balanced... which adds to the total cost. So it can get close to $200 in total charges just for a pair of signal tubes. I guess that's the price we pay for down unda.

What I meant about long wait times is if ever I place orders from CJ via our Aus importer. That takes months... both ends are slow as. One end is busy selling to local customers, whiles the other end is busy producing new gear... then whenever I make a call, they go "oh! Yeah we'll get to it right away" and already a month has passed... you get my point.

By the time both parties have had tea and some cake, the other supplier's items have already arrived at my door within 4 days!

On the plus side though, the reliability factor is slightly better when dealing with CJ and the importer or maybe it's a psychological thing, don't know.

I'm thinking of placing an order through Tube Store again, a bit weary of counterfeit Mullards & Genalexs floating around... I was told. Again not sure if the sources are reliable either.
I'll need to check on a few things before deciding.

Has anyone tried Watford in the UK? I've heard very positive feedback, just wanted to check if any CJO members have done business with them for any of your gear.
Cheers, RJ

As a CJ owner living in the UK, I have used Watford as supplier for my PCC88 valves (tubes) replacement for my GAT2 preamp. They offer a fast, value for money service. I started with the CJ recommended Phillips PCC88 7DJ8 tube and recently bought a matched balanced pair of Matsushita National tubes a s a replacement for a pair of Telefunkens, that I installed in February 2019.

Steve

[XCop5089]

https://www.watfordvalves.com/product_d ... sp?id=4825

[Big Dog RJ]

Maties!
I had the most interesting discussion of the century so far... apart from the previous discussions I've had with LJ and Ed back in the day. It looks like I should have known better and just followed their advice, rather we as audiophiles get highly carried away by all the hype and marketing, and think we know it all, frankly not so!

I think AJ touched upon this briefly a while back, and he's absolutely right when it comes to tube rolling, there's really no point! Power output tubes are quite different, as long as the amplifiers are designed to handle those particular output tubes, then all is well.

So, I happened to come across a chap and his outfit called the Valve Store based right here in Melbourne! Funny thing is, I've never heard of the place nor even knew they existed since a few decades. This guy knows his stuff inside out, and the 40mins conversation I had whiles driving to work, was the most informative thing since I last spoke to Lew and Ed about 20yrs ago. Sometimes I felt pretty ignorant after he explained a few things that makes absolute perfect sense, plus it's even clearly stated in every CJ manual using tubes: *we know of no other tubes that will enhance the performance of your CJ amplifier* something along those lines... plus *we highly recommend that you place your tube replacement sets through CJ *

Anyway, just to keep things brief these were the highlights of our discussion:
1. The GGL's, EH6922, EHX gold pin, standard pin whatever, are all made at the same factory in Saratov Russia. They are ALL identical, just take a look at the pins and structure, basically the same dam thing!

2. There's absolutely no difference between any of these driver/phase inverter tubes! Including input stage tubes.

3. The white flashes are NOT normal! They should never flash or flicker, and they should burn steady. I.e. with a steady amber glow, nothing else.

4. The primary reasons for failure is date of production. So those made in the Flinstones era, perhaps measured good whiles packing... by the time those NOS tubes reach your amplifier, they're pretty much buggered. Tubes do not like to travel, especially air freight. Sea or road is the best, in which case we would have to wait for months for stock but that's just the way they are. I very clearly remember Eve Anne Manley saying the very same thing when I ordered a full replacement set of tubes for my Manley/VTL monoblocks, that included 16 output tubes per side. She sent 8 spares saying that some of them will fall "sick" by the time they reach Colombo! And yes, 6 of them went belly up! That was back in 98/99.

5. Basically, later the production the better! So if you can get hold of any pair (good quality brands) made in 2020/2021, that's the safest bet. Just pull out the bad tube and replace it, if it works that's all that matters!

6. Obviously the Phillips and other makes of small signal tubes are quite different to the Russian made ones coming out of Saratov. Most of these tubes, although compatible in your amplifiers may not necessarily mean they will behave well. Hence, the failures. Now it seems that the GGL's aren't meant for the particular monoblocks I'm using, rather it suits the EH6922's better. However, on both brands I've had tube failures, with those white flashes, yes. It seems like it was mostly due to the date of production and how far back we're talking.

7. The marketing hype around the NOS world of tubes has taken the audiophile by the throat! So the older, and rarer the audiophile thinks they're superb! Again, not the case. Sincere advice, just stick with current production and you're good to go.

8. Output power tubes are the ones that will contribute to the most significant changes. Then again, I swear I hear differences between GGL's and EH... EH seems to have a more profound midrange, whereas the GGL's have a superior bass... however this is psychological and I think my mind has been tricked into thinking those driver tubes are phenomenally different but they're not! So what the heck am I hearing then... I don't know.

9. Matching small signal tubes is a complete waste of time and money. They may measure well upon pre-packing but when they reach your amplifier, and start buring, those measurements go haywire. Pretty much back to square one.
However, Output tubes are better in terms of overall performance when matched, and it is recommended generally after the useful lifespan of output tubes, to do a full tube replacement. Not replacing one by one.
This will ensure the optimum operating life of the amplifier and will allow those output tubes to gradually wear out as their hours run in. Again, clearly stated in CJ's owners manuals.

10. Ending on a very interesting note: the guy said, if someone wants to invest in a tube amplifier and really wants top quality with the best possible sound and solid build, plus highly reliable design, CJ and ARC is the answer!
Ah! Now I know why we all love CJ!

He's got a full line up of both ARC and CJ gear, and both of these brands have continually improved their performance based on simple circuits designed many decades ago. So there's really nothing new in them, rather more simpler signal paths and higher quality parts that are available with the advancement of technology. So caps and resistors used in 1989 are quite different to those caps & resistors used in their gear now. This is what makes the most significant difference in changes to sound and their performance.

Tube rolling is a hobby, if you feel that things change the sound and you like it then go for it! However, it's a highly unnecessary activity. Just replace the existing tubes with the same type as close as possible or a direct match, power up and enjoy those fine tunes! (Hey! That's my line!).

Should have listened to these guys in the first place. Would have saved me quite a lot of grief.
Thought I'd share these notes just for CJO members.
Cheers, RJ

[Big Dog RJ]

So, last night/this morning, finished the listening session way past 4am, closer to 5am. The last couple of hours (about 3hrs) I changed over to the Genalex Gold Lions. Again, was told that these are identical, same construction, same factory, same everything... checked the dates- 16/07 on both, so all is well.

Popped them in and oh! Very nice! Not quite sure whether this is psychological thing or not but there's something quite different in tonality. Not major differences, rather subtle and LF detail seems tighter with a solid thump to describe it. I guess the Electro Harmonix midrange is the winner of the two, although I found the Genalex to offer a smoother sense of balance from highs-mids-lows. Both brands are equally outstanding, and I'm enjoying going either way.

Might as well just use these tubes with the remaining hours on both, which should have ample time since both are fairly new. I did note though the EH tubes are newer production, so I'll probably use these later on. My testing was done using the same tracks on those three SACD's, Bill Charlap and Patricia Barber. So it was quite easy to distinguish those subtle differences.

Cheers, and do enjoy those fine tunes!
RJ

[Joe Appierto]

I don't think what you're experiencing is psychological, RJ. You're hearing differences that are there.

Many years ago Ford Motor Company had a plant here in the states that produced both the Ford Probe and the Mazda 626. Same frame, same guts, different shells. I owned a 626 (two of them) and had driven Ford Probes -- there were real differences between the vehicles and the differences were not due to just the body wrapped around the internals. The two cars were similar but not the same.

I think what you're hearing with the 6922EH and the Genalex 6922 is similar. And not that you need my validation but I owned and used both those tubes in my 16LS2 and as the input tube on the Premier 140 and had the same experiences in terms of sound that you've mentioned.

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes Joe, those subtle differences are definitely there. I'll continue to use the GGL's with their remaining hours left. Afterall these were quite new and still have plenty of good hours on both. The set of EH tubes are in fact a later production, so might as well keep these ones as spares.

I'm now down to my last pair of Genalex, might as well just sit back and enjoy those fine tunes! Like they say, definitely sounds right!

Cheers mate, have a good one now
Best, RJ

[Big Dog RJ]

Uh... well here we go again, pretty much based on title above. Another E88CC GGL driver/phase inverter just failed. The typical very bright white flash occurred for about 2&1/2 secs then set off a noisy signal to the CLX's (left channel) and that's all she wrote!

Lucky I had just one spare of GGL's remaining. Replaced the tube and now all is well. This is basically the very last pair and is getting very annoying...
So at this stage, I'll just use these for the moment and when they go off, I'll switch back to the original tooobs that came with the amplifiers, EH6922's. I've used both versions- standard & gold pins, couldn't really pick out any differences. Also the midrange is slightly more open on the EH compared to the GGL's, where the bass seems bit more solid... I don't know, I think I'm losing the plot!

Anyway, have a few spares for now so all good. Will just sit back and enjoy those fine tunes, I guess.
Cheers to all, RJ

[roberto]

I have noticed too, that the new tubes have a six month of test period. Usually between these six months, they fail. I don’t know if this is due to the quality materials on these days, or just we got the jack pot of failures.

I have only 4 6922 in my system. The Genalex Gold Lion are the ones that I am using with excellent results.

Sorry for you RJ, just put a new one and enjoy those fine tunes!

We know that tubes fail.

Happy listening!

[AnotherJohnson]

So at this stage, I'll just use these for the moment and when they go off, I'll switch back to the original tooobs that came with the amplifiers, EH6922's. I've used both versions- standard & gold pins, couldn't really pick out any differences. Also the midrange is slightly more open on the EH compared to the GGL's, where the bass seems bit more solid... I don't know, I think I'm losing the plot!

People argue and huff about it, but to my ears, the gold pins are a waste of money. People also argue about the thickness of the plating, but in my experience, the thickness is not on the order of ten thousandths, but the order of thousandths. In other words, enough to accelerate wear of sockets. A high muckity muck at our favorite tube electronics company once remarked that they were sonically no different, and geometrically socket challenging.

YMMV