Premier 140 and MV60- Respect?

[Truth71]

I get the impression that the Premier 140 doesn't get as much "respect" as other CJ amps that preceeded or came after...and to a lesser extent this seems to be the case with the MV-60. Do others share this opinion, and if so, why?

[roberto]

Hola truth71,

The Premier 140 using Kt-120 power tubes has the double power than the MV60 has. This extra power has a much better control at the bass. Its sound is much effortless than the MV60 overall. Also, has the new smaller signal path design. Both amps have an incredible stage and truly sense of 3D.

If you have a very efficient speakers, and you don't like to play your music over 90dB of SPL, the MV60 is a great sounding power amplifier too. The MV60 is the half of the Premier 140. Both are great power amps, with the magic sound of Conrad Johnson.

To my ears, I find the Premier 140 a step forward than the MV60. Due to have the double of power, you can use a lot of different speakers without any stress. Some might say that the MV60 is more transparent, well, it all depends of the speakers that you are using. As I said before, both have the authentic CJ magic sound.

Enjoy those fantastic tunes as RJ says.

Happy listening!

[Big Dog RJ]

The Premier 140 and MV60 were a unique turning point for CJ. Such that, these were the newest and last that came out of production with all the added refinements, compared to the previous premier series... Prem 11,12, 8A and the previous mv series- mv 50, 55, 75.

In fact, the mv60 replaced the Prem11, and mv55. It incorporated the highly regarded top notch transpectral trannys at the time. Those similar ones used only in the Prem12's and Prem8A's. So they took the performance of the mv60 to great heights.

When the prem140 and mv60 were introduced and music lovers experienced them for the first time, it was a revelation for them! Instantly those music lovers became CJ fans and later went towards CJ's newer offerings, which were the LP series amplifiers and so they became passionate CJ enthusiasts with a dedication towards CJ amplifiers (just like myself!).

Just about then CJ took a turn and went into a true highend territory with the introduction of the mighty LP series LP275M and then introduced the awesome ART amplifiers along with the GAT preamp, and that was it! Both C & J retired and called it a day... Jeff was just starting on his latest more powerful designs... and now we have the formidable new ART series amplifiers along with the latest ET series preamps and a new version of the GAT, yet pushing the highend envelope even further! That's JF for you.

So, in all respect as Robbo very rightly pointed out, both the prem140 and mv60 were fantastic amplifiers and had all the glorious traits of CJ's signature sound. Both can drive difficult loads depending on speakers efficiency and room size and both offered superb vfm, compared to the ultra-high-end.

I certainly enjoyed every minute I had when I previously owned both of these amplifiers, and they were driving either Maggie's or Quads full range at the time. Partnered with an ACT2 preamp, it was marvellous! Nothing more really required to be honest but then my main speakers changed over time to CLX's and they simply deserve the best, so I've moved on...

I must say though, if there ever was a chance to go back to the hay day of that time, I'd go for either Prem140 or MV60SE with no hesitation! They're fine amplifiers in every sense. So, to answer your question as to respect?...
I don't think very many who owned these two kept them for too long, rather they got so caught up in the CJ sound they ventured towards higher offerings.

At least that's my thinking...

Oh! And one more thing, enjoy those fine tunes!
Best, RJ

[Joe Appierto]

As usual, RJ is on the money -- no pun intended. Especially when he refers to these amps as turning points for CJ. In the case of the 140 it was their first amp voiced around an all-Russian tube complement: 6922EH input, 6H30Pi-EB drivers/phase splitters and SED =6550C= output. I only know of the MV60SE by reputation so can't speak to that directly but the members of this forum are not naysayers when it comes to either amp.

[AnotherJohnson]

I think those amps are great within their power constraints.

I really think too much is made of the ranking of amps. The sound is so dependent on the sources, the speakers, and the room that blanket praise or condemnation should always be taken with a block of salt.

I’ve never had a CJ component that I didn’t like… although direct comparisons within my own system always leads to choices and preferences.

My advice is always to buy the best within your budget. There are many happy users of the two amps you’ve mentioned.

At the same time, I cringe when we talk about old CJ sound vs current. CJ has always done a great job for the era and the price point.

I would not substute either for my LP275Ms. But I would love either in comparison to things like my old MF2200s, or my old MV52.

I don’t think CJ has ever pursued any design goal at the expense of great music reproduction. And, FWIW, I’ve never acknowledged the caramel signature that is often bandied about. Source, room, preamp and speakers work together. To my ears, caramel misses the mark … but those who hear it and love it really seem to seek it out.

The quest for neutrality and openness are at the forefront of my own journey.

I was looking at amps today. I noted that the AR GS150, which got very good reviews when it was released, has now “lost respect.” As a consequence they are trading at prices on the order of 35% of msrp. But I also noted that AR has already discontinued them.

[Big Dog RJ]

That's a very good point AJ, infact I didn't think of the caramel effect that way... yes, source gear and system matching is very critical, and you really can't judge any gear with flying clours, simply because it's difficult to tick all the boxes. That's why when reading those highly praised reviews, I always wonder how they can make such claims like "best ever heard, blown away, out of the park... and so on." Every piece of gear in the chain counts, and every system is different, not one is ever identical nor is the room to begin with.

Having owned, sold and dealt with so many different types of wonderful tube gear, CJ always seemed to bring out the best when included into any sort of system. Whether it was SS or tube gear, it would just make that system sing! Open up, and breathe new life and energy into the room. Like a breath of fresh air!

The others (VTL, Manley Labs, ARC, Jadis, Ayon, Mark Levinson, Krell, CH Precision, Boulder, Solution etc) sounded more accurate and precise that sort of thing but there was just something wonderful in that CJ signature sound. It was quite hard to explain or figure out at first but after side by side comparisons, we figured it out over time.

I've actually auditioned the ARC GS series amplifiers as well as their new M160 monoblocks. They were driving Sonus Faber's Stradivarius speakers and the M160's were driving the YG Acoustics Anat III speakers, pretty impressive stuff. Although it had all that typical ARC big sound, big bloom, big power and all that, it wasn't something that I would heavily invest in. If it was then in that case I would have had a full ARC system already. Although, I've used two of their Reference CD players in the past, it wasn't too long before both units failed miserably due to several technical glitches and component failures... so I just stuck with my big old Mac CD player, it out lasted the lot!

There's a chap here in Melb who uses the ARC Ref250SE monoblocks for his DIY built open baffle speakers. Using an Aus locally made tube preamp, partnered with top end MSB digital gear, it actually sounds pretty darn good. However, quite different to the CJ signature I'm used to and one that I always prefer. However, just as a different flavour it's nice to visit his room once in awhile to get to experience this.

He was wondering whether to change over to the M160's or the GS150. I told him, now that he has the Ref250se, why bother...? And so he decided to keep the Ref amplifiers and sit back and enjoy those fine tunes!

Cheers, RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

He was wondering whether to change over to the M160's or the GS150. I told him, now that he has the Ref250se, why bother...? And so he decided to keep the Ref amplifiers and sit back and enjoy those fine tunes!

Great minds think alike. I would give him the same advice.

I have had AR systems and Krell systems, and even McIntosh systems (though not recently).

I like AR for their features. I like CJ for their sound.

I liked D’Agostino era Krell. But the new stuff leaves me cold. McIntosh seems sterile, but bulletproof.

CJ is easier to deal with than AR or McIntosh. Krell was good … but required too many trips back the factory on pallets.

So we are on the same page I think.

FWIW, you have heard many more combinations than I have, and your descriptions are always more detailed than mine.

CJ unravels the medium and lays out the music in a very convincing way. It really does just sound right to me.

21st century CJ is in a class by itself.

[Joe Appierto]

I attended the NY Audio Show a good number of years ago. Heard D'Agostino's then current pre and power amps driving Wilson speakers in two different rooms and just had to leave them after a few minutes. Cold and sterile are good descriptors. And it wasn't just the less than perfect acoustics you have to deal with in a Manhattan hotel. The rooms featuring KEF (both the Blade and the LS50), Zellaton, and Raidho featured top-notch sound and there were others whose names escape that were also very good.

I don't mean to bad-mouth either Wilson or D'Agostino -- they are very popular and sought after. They just weren't my cup of tea no matter how technically accurate they may have been.

[AnotherJohnson]

Most people liked the D’Agostino era Krells. Sad story about how that went. Same with Levinson era Levinson. Another sad story.

I can’t take current D’Agostino D’Agostino or Wilson because they’re both catering to audio puffing and posturing. CJ strikes a good balance. FWIW, CJ said at one time that they use Zellaton high end and Wilson lower end as reference speakers for their own testing.

When you think about what Wilsons cost, the Martin Logan Neoliths look like a bargain.

[admin]

Can confirm that CJ uses Wilson speakers in their testing room. I've seen pictures. Was not aware of the Zellaton's. Those are some incredibly well finished speakers.

The upper end Wilson's cost a fortune. Who is to say whether it is worth the cost or not? If money was no object, I would probably go with the top tier Magnepan's or a Martin logan CLX Art (even though they are no longer produced). The Neolith for some reason looks terrible to me. And that is a pretty bold statement considering I like ML's stat/woofer design and owned ML Vantages for many years. I have not heard the Neoliths in person so can't speak to the sound quality but something aesthetically is not pleasing about that particular design.

[Joe Appierto]

Just to be clear, although it was a number of years ago D'Agostino had already switched from Forbidden Planet to Captain Nemo. It would've been their Momentum line or whatever came just before it and not Krell. The latter I've never heard but I have the feeling something like the KSA-50 was warmer sounding than what I did hear.

[AnotherJohnson]

Here’s the Zellaton dealer

https://www.audioartsnyc.com/zellaton

I’m pretty sure JF said they were using the Reference Mk2 series. It’s supposed to be on the CJ Facebook page.

The KSA series Krells were like nothing else. Incredibly clear and effortless.

The Full Power Balanced series (I think that’s right) was considered even more clear. There was true love in those amps.

I vertically biamped a pair of KSA150s for a couple of years. They were really transparent for their day.

My MF2550SE was the only thing that equaled them in my system.

Krell, the name, came from the film Forbidden Planet.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbidden_Planet

Read the plot, or better still, watch the film. It is a very creative take on advanced civilizations and technology.

Dan’s latest efforts are priced in the stratosphere.
https://www.dandagostino.com/dagostino- ... amplifiers
Nevertheless, he seems to be making it.

[admin]

Dan’s latest efforts are priced in the stratosphere.
https://www.dandagostino.com/dagostino- ... amplifiers
Nevertheless, he seems to be making it.

How do you attach the power cable? It looks like they are binding posts. Wouldn't that be incredibly dangerous to have a stripped live power cable? It must be something I am not getting...

The amp looks amazing though,... you gotta give them that.

[Joe Appierto]

According to the User Manual after the three connections are made you put the plastic cover back on and screw it into place.


AC cord
The Relentless amplifier is fitted with threaded terminals for its power connections, rather than the
IEC connector found on almost all other power amplifiers. Your amplifier has been shipped with
the appropriate power cord for the voltage and socket available in your region/country. We strongly
recommend you have a licensed electrician connect your power cable, to ensure the connections are
correct. Incorrect power connections will void your warranty and can damage your amplifier.
To connect the power cable, remove the two screws on the plastic cover that protects the AC cable
terminal connections. Remove the nut on the amp’s positive terminal, place the spade ring of the
positive (+) conductor of the cable over the terminal, then replace the nut. Tighten the nut firmly but
gently with a 3/4-inch socket wrench. Use of excessive force on the socket wrench could damage the
terminal. Repeat the process for the negative (-) and ground conductors, then replace the plastic cover
and tighten the two screws down to secure it

[roberto]

Dan’s latest efforts are priced in the stratosphere.
https://www.dandagostino.com/dagostino- ... amplifiers
Nevertheless, he seems to be making it.

How do you attach the power cable? It looks like they are binding posts. Wouldn't that be incredibly dangerous to have a stripped live power cable? It must be something I am not getting...

The amp looks amazing though,... you gotta give them that.

Hola Chicos,

I do remember that Mark Levinson (preamplifiers) and Krell had at the bottom of the amplifier the socket for the Mains AC cable. Being the connector so big, there is a special housing for it right at the bottom. So I am guessing the same thing with the power cable for the DanD'angostino power amp. I have not seen the recent models, so again, this is only a guessing.

Happy listening!

[Joe Appierto]

https://www.monoandstereo.com/2018/08/d ... ifier.html

That's the rear showing the three connectors bottom right hand corner: Positive, negative and ground.

Page down for image.

[AnotherJohnson]

Regarding the power connections, it’s not any more dangerous than the situation with an electric clothes dryer.

They come with screw connectors covered by a removable plate. You match an aftermarket power chord (pig tail) to your outlet, install it (with professional help if you’re not up to it), and off you go.

Krell were among the first to sell their own thousand plus dollar power cords. Also they later used their proprietary CAST interconnects. The technical explanation Krell gives for Current Audio Signal Transmission is hilarious. Although we can design and analyze electrical systems in the current or voltage domains, the real final manufactured components do not behave differently because of the tools we chose to design and analyze them. They behave as they have to by their reality, and we can analyze the behavior to see if it matches our models. Krell would have you believe that current can be made to flow independent of Ohm’s Law for complex impedances. I call BS.

JF has said the largest segment of business for CJ is literally the highest of the high end. I think this is true for many high end companies.

The guys who buy $400k speakers and $100k turntables aren’t wasting time on forums. They’ve just gotten a $3M bonus check, and they want the best audio system. They’re insensitive to cost … and sometimes insensitive to sound as well.

FWIW, much of the high end is P. T. Barnum territory, with tiny truths of science blown up into dogmatic rules that prove something is “best.” I like CJ because they are down to earth. Focus on simple. Focus on premium parts and build. Evaluate with music. It’s more solid than anything else out there.

[Wildcat]

Was there a big enough difference to make it worth moving to a Premier 140 over a Premier 11? The power is double, yet that only amounts to a 3dB increase in output. But I'm also thinking of headroom, where the added power could help slightly with that. I'm asking more in terms of sonic characteristics. (And I've already read about the 6N30 tubes in the forum here.)

[Joe Appierto]

For me there was. The things I noticed most were a more palpable sound stage, increased clarity, tighter bass. On the downside the 140 wasn't as sweet as the 11A but for some that might not be viewed as a bad thing. The usual caveats regarding ancillary equipment, personal tastes, etc.

[Wildcat]

I wouldn't mind the tighter bass, but then again I would probably notice less of a difference in the rest (except for the soundstage). My speakers have a powered woofer section already, so the bass control is more determined by those amplifiers versus the P11. One thing concerning me about the P140 is the 6N30 tubes--they're not as common as the 5751s in my P11, and I like the way the P11 sounds. That's one reason I really wanted a set of P12s vs. the P140. But when that "once in a lifetime" deal comes along, it's hard to pass it up.