why Conrad Johnson is not balanced?

[roberto]

Hola Chicos,

The balanced connection is available on most hi-end products. I would like to hear from you your thoughts about this. The propaganda says that it is the best connection available and the signal is +6dB stronger than single ended. Also plugging and unplugging the cable will not produce any noise through the speakers, and the noise floor is better...all Profesional Studios are balanced. So what do you think about this?

Single ended vs Balanced...is balanced better?

Happy listening

[AnotherJohnson]

With Krell and AR, I tend to use balanced, having tried balanced and unbalanced IN THE SAME BRAND AND MODEL of interconnect in these systems. I like the balanced better, sensing less noise and less distortion.

I try to keep runs short, in the .5 to 3 meter range.

There are some truly horrible balanced interconnects available … just as there are also some truly horrible unbalanced choices too.

On the bright side (), the audible differences between brands and models are usually readily discernible.

I think it’s much more important to have good quality of either balanced or unbalanced, than to choose between balanced or unbalanced.

As for CJ, I do not see their choice of unbalanced only as an obstacle. Their gear always wins in Krell or AR comparos at my house … balanced or not.

[admin]

I've never felt that balanced or non-balanced really is the deciding factor. As AJ notes, the quality of the gear is the determining factor, not the type of analog connection.

I really don't see a compelling reason to put balanced connectors on everything when the standard really is regular RCA connectors. More importantly, it either adds unnecessary complexity or cost to the unit.

[AnotherJohnson]

It definitely adds complexity and cost, especially since often both options are included.

And if it has both, then it may be necessary to short the unused side out. Krell provides jumper pins. And there is also the issue of which convention was followed for wiring the gear. The owners manuals always identify the pins and if they’re not the same for the two components being connected, you need a custom cable or an adapter.

Ken Ishiwata had his signature SA-KI Ruby SACD/DAC unbalanced only, but let them put both on the flagship Marantz unit. His argument was that he wanted the most musical sound without wasting money on his signature series.

With CJ, you don’t have to worry about which to use … you just have the one option.

Note that a lot of Mid Fi gear, like Cambridge Audio and similar (designed in the west but built in the cheap labor low cost east) tout the choice of balanced as a feature.

Marketing guys have no conscience … and no shame.

[roberto]

I have being into the guts of many hi-end brands, some claim that they are fully balanced...and this is the real truth: our speakers, all of them, are not balanced...only two cable to connect to the speakers...so, at the amplifier, the famous balanced is lost. Having three cable the + the - and ground. The signal - is reversed 180º. The signal has +6dB, so it is easier to drive. The problem is a phase shift. The + circuit should be identical to the - circuit, and having components with 1% accuracy, and usually others that less, the signal might look identical, but they are not. And somewhere you should add this signal to make it non balanced. Here is where the the pork twisted the tail ( a Costa Rica saying) and the problem arise. Some might call not a big problem, the phase shift is not a problem...you all know the history.

Single ended is the most pure, untouched, crystal clear signal. I do believe that this is the reason why Conrad Johnson is single ended.

I just wanted to know your thoughts about this... I am super happy with the quality sound coming from my gear...I have not complain at all.

Happy listening!

[AnotherJohnson]

Even JF has said that balanced are defendable in studio length runs as opposed to residential. Any signal that passes through an interconnect that is subject to sources of RF or other interference over a long run will benefit from the balanced choice. It is my opinion that JF believes, just as KI believed, that in residential applications, balanced is unnecessary and not worth the added expense.

Yes, speakers are never fed a balanced signal … but look at how much effort and money goes into people’s speaker wire choices. It is like a comic book anthology of indefensible ideas, with low frequencies choosing one cable strand while others choose a different one. Look at the connector, crossover and jumper options. More magical mystery tour.

Sadly, much of our hobby is exploited by charlatans who prey on anxiety and pride.

[AnotherJohnson]

Just thinking about it, that’s a strong plus for CJ.

CJ will never tell you silly stuff, like put this magic brick on that amp, or use our special proprietary interconnects and power cords. CJ is an honest shop, with no deceptive marketing department working to part fools from their money.

No Business majors studying the market to find the next lucrative mass deception.

CJ is simple.

Simple circuit. Best breadboard. Best technique. Best parts. Least BS. CJ simply sounds right … simply …

[roberto]

Right on AJ,
And not only the simplicity, its the design, the quality parts and the will to do the things right. Balanced is made for long signal runs. Also for fast easy connection. The balanced is ok, but when you really listen carefully in a good system, the single ended is the way to go. But this is my liking and I do respect who likes balanced. I detect in the lower midrange and upper bass a kind of dirt that I don't have this with single ended.

Oh well, I just wanted to know your position regarding this...and I am with the best quality sound=CJ sounds right!

Happy listening!

[Big Dog RJ]

That's a great topic Robbo.

In fact, I've had many debates over this with fellow so-called audiophiles but it never ended well. The last episode went fairly high in price, where one chap over here spent around 40 grand on some top-of-the-line Audience balanced cables called Front Row, and swears that he hears a "huge difference..." I'm still wondering what that huge difference is because he's unable to describe it! As long as it costs a lot of money and is balanced, that's far superior to SE-designed cable, right...
Anyway, as long as they're enjoying the music, that's the main thing I guess. Of course, those dealers are smacking their chops...

I did notice though on my Esoteric digital gear, the balanced output is around twice the rating of the SE output, somewhere around 2.5Vrms on SE and nearly 5Vrms on XLR. So just out of curiosity, I tried it! However, not with CJ gear, merely because as we all know CJ doesn't offer Bal. So I managed to borrow some ARC Ref gear from a good mate, and he also brought along a very high-priced MSB DAC. All went well in terms of connections, and the sound was pretty loud through the CLX's but that CJ musicality factor was missing big time! It was as if listening to a recording through the ARC gear vs listening to live natural music through CJ gear. Maybe I'm bit biased towards CJ but then again similar sound and performance comes from Lamm and Kondo gear, which I do like very very much! None of them offer XLR either as standard unless custom ordered, so they must be doing something right.

Anyhoo... as we all know and as they say, CJ- It just sounds right!

Oh! and do enjoy those fine tunes
Deserves a woof! RJ

[admin]

It's possible that with AB switching comparisons people will perceive balanced as being better merely for the reason that it is louder. This has been shown before in studies although the effect wears off quickly. This is one of the principle reasons for the "loudness wars" where CD's lost their dynamic range from producers simply making everything loud.

I'm really glad CJ had decided to stick with simplicity and quality.

[roberto]

Well, if you train your ears you will find a kind of dirt located circa 360 Hz, at that area, specially on vocals. Also the main instrument or soloist, on only certain musical notes, there is that kind of dirt or turbid for fractions of time. When you change for single ended, only clean sound comes...no turbid or dirt sound. Like washing one glass with a very small fingerprint. I don't know in other speakers, but my CLXs are super clean and very sensitive to small nuances. Sibilant and harsh in a very small quantity is what I hear. When I hear the problem, I start to press my finger into the customer's shoulder or a friend, showing to them that the dirt is there...and they learn how to detect that dirt or turbid fraction of the voice or musical instrument. I don't know way the dirt is circa that frequency...

I have friends that have learned to listen to the music with bad things, and they are happy and enjoying the music. We get accustomed to as an example, the noise of the PLs. This noise does not affect the stage or the timbre of the musical instrument. It is just noise, cracks, tics, pops. No matter how you clean the LPs, suddenly you get a noise, and as I said before, we mentally erase it, like the hiss from a reel to reel tape. These noises do not belong to the music. So we have the ability to suppress that odd things with our brain and this is OK. About five years or less I entered into the digital world. I have to admit that I was listening to digital since the early 90s, with PS, Theta Digital, etc. And I was immersed into the LPs world, not really listening the giant steps that the digital sound was giving. I went to hear a Conrad Johnson amp with a distortion on certain instruments and the problem was only in one channel. He had sold all his LPs and was listening only digital. He had the Big Seven made by Lampizator. Watching this man using his laptop and an iPad controlling his system and the digital library. got my attention. Also the sound quality was very good, so I start to judge the digital world since then with much respect. The problem, believe it or not, was a faulty connection on the connector of the speaker cable. Once I retighten the connector, the blurred musical notes disappear.

So, no matter what we use, we enjoy our tunes that much! We have to thank to Conrad Johnson. CJ sounds right!.

Happy listening!

[roberto]

I am with you Admin, the difference in level, usually cause an impression that it sounds better...

As RJ says: enjoy those fine tunes,

Bobby.

[AnotherJohnson]

A serious comparison ALWAYS involves level matching.

It is easy with AR preamps because they include the feature of setting attenuation differently from source to source.

Even with other gear, you can get an app to turn your smart phone into an SLM and set levels.

[roberto]

Yup AJ,
Most people don't get that. Difference in level people usually think that the louder is the best. And also, for critical listening, you should spend some time listening A and then the same material to B, then back to A. Rest fo a while your mind and then listen B, A and back to B. Also you must take in care that with the immediate or short-term memory, this one only last about 30 seconds to a very train ears. It is much better to use your long-term memory. This one last years!

I was just trying to bring a discussion of what the members think about balanced...but I do know that answer. Balanced for a home audio system is not necessary. Balanced is for long mics cables basically.

Happy listening!