PV15 or Classic 2/2se

[AnotherJohnson]

There are LOTS of threads on tubes and tube sources here.
Lots of opinions about what’s worthwhile and what’s not.

Probably one of the lowest cost sources was found and posted by Roberto.

It’s just one tube for the ET3SE. So at least you don’t have to buy 16 of anything.

My ET3SE, which I bought new, had an OEM tube (PCC88) that lasted about a year. I bought two 6922 replacements … one from CJ and one for a spare from Upscale Audio. I had never used 6922s up to that point.

I liked the 6922s very well. My ET7S1 also came new with a PCC88. Also lasted about a year. Replaced with 6922 from Upscale. Liked it better than OEM.

My LP275Ms came with 6922s. They’re on their second set, but they sound great.

This tube stuff seems to be really personal, so you may want to do some experimenting to find what works best for you.

I like Upscale’s platinum grade withou cryo.

Other people like other stuff. I don’t think there’s just one answer.

[Rubicon15]

I totally agree. I like the platinum grade without cryo. I’ve read the pros and cons regarding the process. I just purchased a complete set of tubes for my MV60SE from Upscale. I think they offer quality products at a fair price. I’m really considering upgrading the OEM standard to the Gold Lion CJ recommends. I don’t know if anyone has had good or bad luck with the Gold Lion 6922.

[Joe Appierto]

RJ has written a good deal on his experiences with and sonic impressions of both the Gold Lion 6922 and the 6922EH.

I purchased 7 of them about 10 years ago from Jim McShane -- a reputable dealer then and now. I used 1 as the input tube in a Pr. 140 and the other 6 went into my Pr. 16LS2. I used them for about 50 hours before moving onto whatever was next to be tried. I thought the Genalex were quite good.

I used to write an online audio blog in those days and these were my more detailed listening impressions.

Bass response is strong, laying a solid foundation to the music in much the same way as the Saratov (Reflector) 6H23π-EB.
Although dialogue is clear and easy to follow, vocalists can sound “smaller” than life-size at times with mouth and throat predominating over the chest.
Treble is open and extended.
Low level detail is reference level.
Transient attack is not quite up to the level of reference vintage tubes.
Soundstage width, depth and height are near-reference grade and most like the Mullard PCC88.
Macro-dynamics are forceful and are most similar to the 6922EH in this regard.
Lacks the tonal smoothness and grain-free quality of the best vintage tubes, as do the 6922EH and to a lesser degree, the Saratov 6H23π-EB.

This is naturally just one person's opinion and I've always had a preference for vintage tubes.

[Rubicon15]

Im just keeping this thread going… Is anyone using tube dampers? To date, I have never tried dampers. Should I consider using dampers on the ET3SE 6922 tube? I’ve read pros and cons but I would like to hear what knowledgeable users think.

[AnotherJohnson]

They’re harmless, and may have some benefit in some applications. My Audio Research gear included dampers for the small tubes. I never did any A to B direct comparisons of with or without.

Swapping tubes in and out of gear is hard on the tubes and the sockets. Because of the heat, it takes significant time, even just to take dampers on and off and on again.

1. Buy dampers. 2. Put them on. 3. Fahgeddaboudem. Or go to step 3 first.

[Big Dog RJ]

G'day Rubs,

Regarding tube dampers, the primary purpose is to quieten them further. By sort of isolating or holding them in rubber rings, should dampen things... is the main idea.

However, these can only be used on small signal tubes, not recommended on output tubes due to their excessive heat dissipation. Funny thing is, I've been using these dampers since I was introduced to tubes (few decades ago...)

Around early this year, when my monoblocks went for a final SE upgrade, they were returned without the dampers on the driver/ phase inverter tubes (6922's). Only the smaller M8080 input tubes had them. Since getting them back fully upto SE spec in March I really hadn't noticed any differences, other than the enhanced performance of the amplifiers.
I asked the tech what happened to the dampers, his reply was that he had misplaced them and forgot to replace them... wanted to know if I really required them, he would send a few across. As AJ pointed out- forget about them!

Cheers, and do enjoy those fine tunes!
RJ

[Rubicon15]

Big Dog, what brand of dampers do you have? In my case, it would only be used on the one 6922 tube in the ET3se. Has anyone used MATSUSHITA / NATIONAL PCC88 / 7DJ8 to replace their 6922’s? Upscale Audio has them on their website. I’m more inclined to stick with the GL or EH.

[Big Dog RJ]

Hey Rubs,

Not sure of any particular brand when it comes to dampers. These were the original ones supplied with the monoblocks. Had them for several years on both the Input & Driver tubes. When they went back & forth for several upgrades, the dampers were always there. However, on the last trip for the final SE upgrade, the techie forgot to place them back on! In any case, they're absolutely quiet, no noise whatsoever, so I didn't bother getting any.

As far as tube swapping goes, and trying out different brands, this is a highly personal thing, which only you can determine. Any of those variants are fine and will work ok, however only one or two may work really well on that particular preamp. It's not about the actual sonics and musical quality that's the focus, rather it's the gain variations. Although internal wiring and pin structure are identical, each of those brands you mentioned has different gain variables. The idea is to best match this particular spec with the preamp that you're using. The other issue is, once the gain structure is matched, some may actually not prefer that sound and may want to try out a different tube, and that's where tube rolling comes into effect.

It's quite an interesting journey, especially when you want to custom make the type of sound you prefer (i.e. provided that you know the type of sound you want!). At the end, if you find that type of custom sound, that's great! However, if you don't know what you're after, you'll be going round in circles, and most in this camp tend to overdo things.

Apart from the many different ones I've tried, they all seemed to have their own attributes. Out of the lot, only two remained in my amplifiers, and those were the GGL's and EH brands. BTW, these are actually identical tubes, same internal structure, made in the same factory, same process, with slightly different flavoring... that's all! You can order matched pairs, premium-grade, gold pin, this pin & that pin... as long as you stick with the same tube type "intended" for your preamplifier design.

After going through the mill and merry-go-round of tube rolling, I've come back full circle to the original specified by CJ, and that was the Mullard M8080 for Input tube and EH6922 (standard pin, no gold) as the driver tube. It sounds marvelous! Or should I say, "Just Sounds Right!"

Having said that, the most significant change in overall sound & performance is actually found in Output tubes. This is where the biggest difference is, so when trying out various Output tubes, you just need to make sure that the manufacturer would recommend using a particular tube vs the other. Just as long as the trannys can provide the required current to safely power that tube. Once again trials are to be done with the utmost caution, you don't want to bust the amplifier and burn the house down, even though it may enhance performance.

Cheers, RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

The tube dampers are a stop gap measure to damp out vibrations that may be generated in the tube, or on the board, possibly excited by the acoustic field.

The better the design, and the better the tube, the less impact the dampers will have. They’re just fancy silicone rubber bands. Harmless, maybe a plus in a marginal system.

There are also tube shields available. They are not common anymore in high end Audio, but they’re still common in point to point wired guitar amps.

If you like dampers, you might LOVE the shields. They damp AND cut down RF interference. They may facilitate heat transfer too.

Nowadays they’re available in a wide range of designer colors. Best of all, dampers and shields are cheap. There’s an opportunity here for someone to make a unique product and charge 1000 times the cost.

FWIW, I doubt that RJ’s technician “forgot them.” He just threw them out … as I would probably have done.

[Rubicon15]

Herbie’s dampers cost between $29 for ultrasonic and $45 for hal-o. Not cheap but I only have the one tube. It definitely sounds like RJ’s tech doesn’t believe they add any sonic benefits. If he did, he would have installed new dampers or at least offer the latest and greatest. It appears, I don’t need to go down this rabbit trail.

[AnotherJohnson]

Herbie’s dampers cost between $29 for ultrasonic and $45 for hal-o. Not cheap but I only have the one tube. It definitely sounds like RJ’s tech doesn’t believe they add any sonic benefits. If he did, he would have installed new dampers or at least offer the latest and greatest. It appears, I don’t need to go down this rabbit trail.

Sounds like somebody beat me to the idea of audiophile grade dampers.

[Rubicon15]

Apparently, Herbie dampers have received favorable reviews by numerous audiophiles. A quick Google search indicated that their main office is surprisingly close to my residence. A mere 30 miles. The question of the weekend. Are dampers snake oil in disguise or really beneficial?

[AnotherJohnson]

Try them and let us know.

[admin]

The question of the weekend. Are dampers snake oil in disguise or really beneficial?

Only if you can't hear the difference.

[Joe Appierto]

I somehow don't think that companies such as Conrad Johnson and Audio Research supply their equipment with tube dampers just for the heck of it if they didn't think it could provide some benefit.

But as with just about everything else in this hobby of ours opinions run the gamut from they're beneficial to they don't do anything to they negatively impact the sound. Kevin Deal, for example, has stated that tube dampers suck the air out of the sound and therefore they shouldn't be used.

I tried the silicone O-rings and Herbies tube dampers. I used the O-rings when there was not enough room for Herbies dampers because I preferred the latter. In some cases I heard a difference for the good and in others couldn't tell the difference. It depended on the particular tubes in question and the piece of equipment.

There were no hard and fast rules.

[AnotherJohnson]

I somehow don't think that companies such as Conrad Johnson and Audio Research supply their equipment with tube dampers just for the heck of it if they didn't think it could provide some benefit.

Thinking back over the 10 or so pieces I’ve bought directly from CJ, I’ve never received a new piece of gear from them that had tube dampers, either installed, or in the box.

But I agree that it’s a matter of personal preference. I’ve wondered if AR uses them in order to add an extra layer of protection when they’re out of the component.

As for audiophile recommendations, every piece that enters the market has some proponents. Being generous, think of the Fletcher Munson data that show we all hear with different frequency dependent sensitivity.

I didn’t know Kevin was against them. I think whether you need them or not is circumstantial. Marginal tubes and designs that put sockets near transformers need them more than others. I’ve always thought they were harmless. But if Kevin doesn’t hear them as positive, maybe they’re not.

[Joe Appierto]

Thinking back over the 10 or so pieces I’ve bought directly from CJ, I’ve never received a new piece of gear from them that had tube dampers, either installed, or in the box.

Although I've owned both a 17LS and a 16LS2 in neither case was I the original owner. This, however, is from the 16LS owner's manual:

The first step in preparing your Premier 16LS preamplifier for use is to
install the vacuum-tubes. To do this, remove the tube guard by releasing
the two captive screws attaching the guard to the chassis. The Premier
16LS uses six type 6922 tubes. After checking the pin orientation, insert
one tube in each tube socket. Next, fit two of the included silicone rubber
rings over each tube, spaced at roughly 1/3 and 2/3 distances. These
rings will minimize the effects of air-borne microphonics on the tubes.
Finally, reinstall the tube guard.


The 17LS manual has identical wording except it references the four 6922 tubes used in that model.

[Joe Appierto]

Kevin has tempered his position on tubes dampers. Although in the past he was not in favor of them this is what he now has to say when discussing microphony:

"Can a tube be too low in microphony? Sometimes a little bit of microphony can be a good thing! In my opinion, tubes that have a smidge of microphony can lead to a sense of “air” or depth in soundstage. Using tube dampers can decrease, or even eliminate microphonics, but it can also remove that air and depth. Some folks don't mind that, others do. If you have tube dampers, try using your tubes with them, then listen to the same tracks without, and make a judgement call... there's no right or wrong answer here."

[AnotherJohnson]

I was not yet buying new in that era. The screws I’ve seen. But not the dampers. So … I don’t know if they are using them in more recent products, but I’ve not seen them first hand from the factory in recent years. You’ve owned higher level CJ than I have… do they use them in the GAT or ART series? I have had AR products with factory supplied dampers.

It is a good point that if the electronics are sympathetic to airborne vibrations from the acoustic field, dampers could help at some frequencies. My installations have been set up to avoid acoustic driven electronic feedback, but it could be a problem with microphonic tubes sitting out near a bass bump in the room.

What Kevin sounds like he is describing as the result of microphonic feedback is equivalent to a touch of reverb. I don’t think this is EVER going to give a true reproduction. In a guitar amp it is intentionally introduced and controllable. It should not be present at all in an audiophile grade reproduction amp. Maybe adding tube dampers is prophylactic against changes in tube microphonics over time, or maybe it allows a more microphonic tube to be used which is also more linear.

I think this all fits with my comment on choosing the best, graded and auditioned tubes.

And it could explain the draw of tube rolling. Because, although we seek out tubes that are not microphonic when we buy Kevin’s platinum grade, when we buy NOS or other legendary tubes, we are looking for “something special.”

I maintain that the “something special” is not bound by the goal of being “something accurate.”

FWIW, it’s not like Kevin not to oversell the value of something like using dampers … at $40 a whack on every tube sale he makes, it would not be chicken feed.

It sounds to me like adding safety pins to a really good pair of suspenders.

You can buy tube dampers for WAAAY less than $40, so it’s definitely another case of exploiting audiophile anxiety.

If the dampers aren’t snake oil, at least paying $40 for them must be a splurge. I’ll bet many would give $140 just for the peace of mind.

[Joe Appierto]

True about preying on peace of mind and I like the safety pins with suspenders analogy.

The Pr. 16LS2 and the 140 were my swansong when it came to CJ's tubed gear. I was never fortunate enough to own the ART (although the 16LS was touted I think as the "baby ART") or the GAT. They were out of my financial league.

The silicone O-rings were quite affordable, at least back in the day, and got you most of the way in those situations where there was a benefit to the dampers. The effect of either the O-rings or Herbies Hal-Os was never a night and day kind of thing in my experience.