Recap is a must?

[Zoroastro]

Hello, everyone!

I'd like to ask if, when buying and old equipment (20 or more years old), recap is a must. Or if you mesure it, and the components are ok, you don't need to recap.
I'd like to hear you thoughts.
Best regards,
Zoroastro

[AnotherJohnson]

Ears are always a good guide.

Eyes too. Leaking or bulging are bad, even if reference voltages seem OK.

Polystyrene and polypropylene caps are more likely to be ok than electrolytics. Teflon caps will outlast most owners.

Recapping of most 20th century stuff is nearly always audible.

There’s a wide range of “acceptable performances.” You might be perfectly happy without the knowledge of what recapping can produce in an old unit.

FWIW, on the resale market a factory recap ALWAYS trumps any aftermarket wizard’s recap.

People advertise that their used unit was completely restored by the “legendary Joe Blow” and that it’s worth three prices.

Rather it is worth half price. Vintage gear is never more valuable because it is non-stock.

[Big Dog RJ]

Agreed!
Especially those older vintage gear, even though made on very high standards, recapping and a full check up will always help. Once the unit is upto full spec, it will sound marvellous!

Look after it well and it will give you many more years of fine audio quality from your favourite recordings.

Cheers, RJ

[Wildcat]

I can see the recap issue to a point. For less important equipment (receivers, tape decks, etc.), I wouldn't care who did it, as long as it was done safely and properly, with original values and good quality components (like Nichicon caps). In other words, I'd really have to trust someone to do it on my behalf. For something as old as the Grundig 2420 tabletop radio I own, I'd rather have someone experienced go through it and update components for me, especially since it is tube-based.

I recapped my own Hafler DH-101 just due to age, and the only modification I made was bumping up the voltage on the power supply caps, as I've had them fail a couple of times. Used top quality Nichicons for the electrolytics. Nelson Pass even recommends recapping the electrolytics in the Nakamichi PA-7 Stasis amp that he designed, and stated (in the DIY Audio forum) that Panasonic caps are "plenty good enough." (I'm not sure if I'll keep my PA-7, but it might make for a good refurb project in the future.)

Film, polystyrene, etc. caps are not as prone to aging, and it is often recommended they NOT be changed. For instance, I'm told not to replace the film caps in my Dahlquist DQM-9 pair, as others who have tried it say that it won't make any difference. Electrolytics are the culprit.

But for higher-end equipment? Read on...

FWIW, on the resale market a factory recap ALWAYS trumps any aftermarket wizard’s recap.

So true! When I was shopping for my electronics, anything modified or recapped by someone other than the manufacturer was immediately out of consideration for me. It's like when I shop for cars--in the car world we call this "unmolested," and for some cars I've been interested in, there were many modifications out there that made me wonder why they would alter the original design of the body (by adding ground effects, spoilers, etc.) or the engineering by making questionable mods to the suspension or powertrain. On the other hand, subtle and tasteful modifications are a way to make a vehicle your own.

Same with electronics. Nobody but the manufacturer knows what the component should sound like. No "expert" out there knows that their own proprietary modification "really brings this component to life." Maybe it sounds fine to them, but that doesn't make it right. I will, however, argue that some companies like Modwright who made modifications to the Oppo CD players, for instance, know what they are doing, and their modifications do take the base components to a higher level (and I've listened to a few of their products over the years).

The only person I would really trust to do any recapping besides C-J would be Bill Thalmann, largely because he was such an important part of C-J for so many years and knows the circuits. My Premier 11 is with him right now getting a couple of issues taken care of. C-J, on the other hand, doesn't entertain repairing or inspecting my amp, so much as recapping it for more than the amp is worth. And that Teflon recapping cost is something I would never recover when I went to sell it.

[Wildcat]

And I should add one thing--I've had more than one old component die completely due to aging electrolytics in the power supply. The resulting failure could kill other things in the circuit (transistors, resistors, other caps, fuses, diodes, you name it).

[AnotherJohnson]

I agree completely.

It is only the true high end collectibles that need factory recaps.

And it can be fun to do your own. I’ve got the set up to safely drain the caps.

A friend of mine who is a great musician and promoter/manager once took his vintage fender amp to the most highly regarded Nashville amp tech (at that time).

The tech recapped everything, as it was sorely needed.

My friend went NUTS and accused him of stealing his original parts. He bad mouthed him to anyone who would listen.

I don’t know why he thought 1965 OEM caps would be available, or how he thought failed caps could be restored.

There was no reasoning with him.

Great musician, savvy collector … dumb as rocks about the reality of electronic restoration.

[Wildcat]

I don’t know why he thought 1965 OEM caps would be available, or how he thought failed caps could be restored.

There was no reasoning with him.

Great musician, savvy collector … dumb as rocks about the reality of electronic restoration.

That's a good one. Capacitors have improved so much over the decades that I certainly wouldn't expect them to look like the originals! And while the radio does sound nice, it's not a C-J or VAC or Audio Research piece I'd worry about fussing over about authenticity. Reliability, and preventing it from burning the house down, are my two main concerns!

Interesting note about the Grundig--consider this was built in 1964. It claims the tweeter is "electrostatic." There is some sort of square driver in there, but I would have no clue as to how it works, whether it works, or whether it could be restored. I can't hear any output. This is something I'd let a repair tech worry about. And of all the old failed parts inside, that is probably the only thing I would want back, just out of curiosity. This radio also has a PU input (PickUp), for a turntable; instead, I found a DIN-to-3.5-inch adapter cable and can plug a Chromecast Audio puck into it. Neat party trick! Especially since local radio is, to put it nicely, lacking.

[AnotherJohnson]

I almost bought an MR71 the other day.

I had one back in the day. It was the best FM tube tuner in the McIntosh line according to many accounts.

But I didn’t because of the lack of worthy FM broadcasts these days.

[Wildcat]

Don't laugh, but I have a cheaper tuner that almost matches the C-J front panel. It was sold by...Radio Shack. The Realistic TU-1000. It was in my "stack" as a teenager, both components bought during one of their "Where-Is, As-Is" clearance sales on my summer lawn mowing funds. I think the tuner was originally $200, and I got it for $60, new in the box. Did it sound the best? Probably not. But back when we had good radio here, it spent many hours playing in my system when I wasn't spinning records. Maybe the gold faceplate was a sign of things to come? I've come full circle with the C-J components now.

This is not mine, but a picture of two of the three components in the series. The integrated amp was the SA-1000A, and the tuner the TU-1000. Neat feature of the tuner was the Auto-Magic tuning--when the tuner locked in on the signal, the meter on the left would turn blue and the tuner would "grip" onto the frequency so it wouldn't drift. (I could even detune the dial in either direction and wouldn't lose the signal.) I also had a 50 ft. long wire on the roof--using that, the AM receiver could pick up stations from quite a distance. The furthest I got from suburban Detroit was KDKA in Philadelphia!

https://imgur.com/a/HgcOvsj

As the old ad says, "You've come a long way, baby!"

[AnotherJohnson]

I spent many hours at both Radio Shack, and their competitor Lafayette Electronics during the 60’s.

Very affordable gear, especially on close outs.

[Wildcat]

The mid 70s to early 80s was my Radio Shack era--they were a convenient mile and a half ride away on my bike. It was great for my tinkering, as I could find my own way over there to pick up a few parts I needed. I think we had a Lafayette catalog in the house, and I do remember one particular Allied Radio catalog we had (1969, which you can find here), and was constantly flipping through to the audio systems in there, more so the all-in-one systems that I could afford. But it's interesting to flip through that catalog today and see the components from Fisher, H.H. Scott, Sherwood, Harman-Kardon, Eico, Electro-Voice, Bogen, Dynaco (assembled and kit), and others. How about a Marantz 7T preamp for $325, or Model 15 power amp for $395? Higher-end for its day, and in today's dollars the preamp would be $2,450 and the power amp $2,975. Which are more than I paid for my C-J components.

A buddy of mine had a tubed Marantz set that his father gave him, but we never got around to hooking it up and trying it before he moved away. I have a variac, which would have been a safe means to power it up. I'm sure those would be worth some coin today, and would need recapping I'm sure if put into continuous use.

[AnotherJohnson]

I owned Scott early on. The old guys who’d come up in Mono mostly had Marantz or Fisher or the ultimate, McIntosh. I didn’t get into McIntosh until my pockets were deeper, and by that time Scott, Fisher, Marantz and the like had all sold out and were mass marketing to the low/mid buyers.

Reel to Reel was the serious source. Harry Weisfeld (VPI founder) still thinks so, as did Harry Pearson before his death.

Many of the old guys who grew up in mono railed against stereo as a calculated scheme to sell second channels, either dual mono pairs, or stereo single chassis.

Nuther preamp, nuther amp, nuther speaker.

Dynaco, Heathkit, and later David Haffler all offered audio cheapskates a chance to build their own. I had fun with some of these too. I was an audio cheapskate for a long time, and by many measures, I still am.

[Wildcat]

My grandfather was the Heathkit aficionado in the family--watching him build a few things was probably part of my inspiration for getting into this. He had one of their tubed integrated amps, a tuner, and FM multiplexer to get stereo FM from the old tuner. Had a Heathkit tape deck, and a Garrard Synchrolab 95 turntable after he gave us his old Heathkit turntable (which was made by Glaser-Steers--a rebadged GS-77). He later built a solid state receiver--that's one I will never get rid of. His build was meticulous!

[AnotherJohnson]

Many a dining room tablecloth was ruined by hobbiest soldering equipment in those days. Don’t ask me how I know.

[4thtimeaudiophile]

A friend of mine has an old Fisher tube amp that he has had in storage for quite some time. I offered to buy it from him, but it is a keeper for him. So, I have made an offer to recap it for him. I would do it at no cost just to keep the venerable old Fisher alive. In this case, all of the electrolytics are a must to replace. Even putting in polystyrenes in the signal path would also be beneficial. I heard an ugly rumor that there was a bad run of electrolytics back in the '90's. It was across the board and affected a lot of consumer grade electronics. I experienced that first hand when I was converting some Motorola commercial 2-way radios for amateur radio use. Being a ham radio operator, I have worked on a lot of old radios, at least superficially, for decades. I have also experienced electrolytic failure with these fellas. In fact, when hams try to sell a "restored" old radio, the fact that it has been "recapped" is top on the list of selling points. This whole notion of "original parts" needs to be revisited. For instance, who uses mica dielectric capacitors in new production? As far as I know, no one does. Mica, wax paper tubulars and the new kid on the block, electrolytics were mostly used in the 50's. My guess is that the garden variety electrolytics made today have a much more stable chemistry in their dielectrics than those bad boys of the 90's. Please correct me if I am wrong. We certainly know that there is also much better materials technology going on with the audiophile grade of capacitors of today. When I bought my MV45 from a friend, I had it on the bench to give it a check out. It was making a funny noise on one channel. After about a half an hour, the noise got worse. Then there was the cloud of blue smoke and the hearty hi-ho silver. I knew right away that an electrolytic had gone south. I located the offending culprit buried in the underside of the chassis solely by the physical evidence left behind at the crime scene. After some searching, I was able to locate an exact drop-in replacement for the dual section power supply cap. Fortunately, there were no other components that failed because of this.

[admin]

It was actually in the late 90's to late 2000's that there was a global epidemic of bad caps being produced. I actually had a computer monitor fail after just a couple of years and did a replacement of the caps myself. Worked great after. The failures were so common that they were actually selling "recap kits" on ebay specifically for the monitor model.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

[Wildcat]

I bought a cheap Chi-Fi amp to play around with and its caps drifted so far out of spec after a year or two that it wouldn't turn on anymore. After replacing them, the amp worked again. I put the old no-name caps on the meter and all of them were at the very bottom of their 20% tolerance, whereas one in the power supply was 25% below the nominal value. The cheapest Nichicons from Mouser that I used were closer to the nominal values, as expected.

[bschott]

I agree completely.

It is only the true high end collectibles that need factory recaps.

And it can be fun to do your own. I’ve got the set up to safely drain the caps.

A friend of mine who is a great musician and promoter/manager once took his vintage fender amp to the most highly regarded Nashville amp tech (at that time).

The tech recapped everything, as it was sorely needed.

My friend went NUTS and accused him of stealing his original parts. He bad mouthed him to anyone who would listen.

I don’t know why he thought 1965 OEM caps would be available, or how he thought failed caps could be restored.

There was no reasoning with him.

Great musician, savvy collector … dumb as rocks about the reality of electronic restoration.

Not as crazy as it seems. Vintage Fender amps are considered the holy grail for guitarists. Don't even get me started on vintage guitars. God forbid you replace a rusted out screw with a brand new one! There'll be hell to pay. At the least, the tech should have given him the old parts back and prior to that explained to the owner that some of the caps needed replacement.

If you took your kid to a barber and they guy decides to shave the kids head instead - you'd be pissed!

But all this a diff crazy scene from the crazy audiophile scene - I think.

[AnotherJohnson]

I agree completely.

It is only the true high end collectibles that need factory recaps.

And it can be fun to do your own. I’ve got the set up to safely drain the caps.

A friend of mine who is a great musician and promoter/manager once took his vintage fender amp to the most highly regarded Nashville amp tech (at that time).

The tech recapped everything, as it was sorely needed.

My friend went NUTS and accused him of stealing his original parts. He bad mouthed him to anyone who would listen.

I don’t know why he thought 1965 OEM caps would be available, or how he thought failed caps could be restored.

There was no reasoning with him.

Great musician, savvy collector … dumb as rocks about the reality of electronic restoration.

Not as crazy as it seems. Vintage Fender amps are considered the holy grail for guitarists. Don't even get me started on vintage guitars. God forbid you replace a rusted out screw with a brand new one! There'll be hell to pay. At the least, the tech should have given him the old parts back and prior to that explained to the owner that some of the caps needed replacement.

If you took your kid to a barber and they guy decides to shave the kids head instead - you'd be pissed!

But all this a diff crazy scene from the crazy audiophile scene - I think.

I guess you had to know the tech, the business, and the owner. It was crazier than it seemed.

[Toberius]

Hello, everyone!

I'd like to ask if, when buying and old equipment (20 or more years old), recap is a must. Or if you mesure it, and the components are ok, you don't need to recap.
I'd like to hear you thoughts.
Best regards,
Zoroastro

Hi,

It depends on what you are going to use the equipment for.

This can be for collection and to have it in a showcase or to enjoy its sound.

If it is for collection, I suppose it should be original.

If it is to enjoy its sound, well, the reality is that time does not pass for everything in the same way and electronic components are no exception.

I agree that the upgrade should be done by the manufacturer. Who else can count on the original replacement and maybe an even better replacement.

You could replace a malfunctioning component for the same value but different brand without any complication, you would be solving a problem. You appreciate the music again.

The manufacturer has the right design and parts for that design. That design is easy to interpret by reading the schematic.

Now, in physics, chemistry and electronics, replacing a circuit component with the same value using a different brand name is a solution. But there are 2 solutions now, yours and that of the manufacturer. Both are solutions, with the difference that yours is in most of the times cheaper and may even be in your ears a better solution than the one proposed by the manufacturer.

Maybe yes, maybe no.


Cheers.