Audio Research

[Big Dog RJ]

Ah! Nice one AJ mate!

Yes, the REF250se amps are certainly big and beautiful, though sound wise that's a personal thing. As correctly pointed out, that series is special- Ref75/se, 150 & 250/se.

After having heard these series of amps, I would also think that the REF75SE is quite special from the rest but that needs to be determined by you in your particular setup. How the Ref250's interact with the rest of the gear and speakers will determine that absolute synergy. Excellent! Exciting times mate.

At our previous apartment, which we lived in for nearly 15yrs, the chap who owned these amps was my neighbour. So I'd be at his place quite often and he'd be at mine comparing notes. That's how I managed to borrow the entire series, it was real fun and a great learning curve to try these fabulous amps by ARC. Then we built our new home and left... I was in touch with him recently, he's got the Ref160M's but his current speakers are terrible in efficiency that the Ref160M's are really struggling. He firmly believes that the Ref250se would have done a better job, I'm not sure. Those are some MBL speakers, which are notorious to drive. They require 100s or 1000s of watts just raw power to even sneeze, only then they work. So he's now in a pickle... talk about over-doing things.
Previously he had Quads and Maggie's, the Ref250se drove his MG20.7's beautifully and the REF75SE on the Quad ESL's was wonderful! I really liked that particular setup.

Anyway, I'm sure you've gone through the specs and made wise decisions. Your speakers and the rest of the gear should match really well. Now it's just a matter of finding which type of ARC power you prefer. I wouldn't be surprised though if you also keep the REF75SE just as a statement. It's a marvellous amplifier.

Cheers mate, and a mighty good one!
WOOF!!! RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

I don’t claim any wisdom.

From a costs point of view, this pair of REF250SEs was too good a deal to pass up.

I do have a continuing dilemma though.

I’m keeping the REF 75SE because I really do think it is special.

I still have the pair of LP275Ms because I’m hesitant to offer them for sale due to the likely ground loop issues that a new owner would have to be walked through.

I will have the pair of REF 250 SEs at my house two weeks from today. I may have a whole set of new problems to work out. I hope I don’t. But you never know.

So I’ll have three “world class” sets of amps. Long term I only want two … or better still, one.

I think it is going to resolve to two systems, one of which is on the bench/shelf.

[Big Dog RJ]

Oh! I though the LP275M's were already gone... and you did a deal on the ARC Ref250se instead. Ok, that would certainly be a nice comparison having big tube amps on hand. Fun times! You'll be up all day & all night!

Keep us update, really tops.

Cheers, RJ

[Joe Appierto]

In the old days the comparison would've been the golden glow versus the silver sheen. With these two more modern offerings not so much but their respective DNA will still most likely assert themselves.

The contrast and points of commonality should make for some fun listening for sure.

If you could, AJ, please keep us apprised. Thanks.

[AnotherJohnson]

In those days of old, I always preferred CJ’s sound. But I never bought any nearly new ARC gear.

I think that first CJ component (PV5) was so special for its era that it created momentum for my preference. I bought that while it was still the top PV line preamp.

What I THINK I’ve learned over the last five or six years is that every “house sound” evolves over time. This is why I disagree with the “house sound” concept … house sound changes, hence it’s not a benchmark.

Comparing 2007’s best CJ amp to ARC’s best 1995 amp leads me to CJ. Comparing 2015’s best ARC amps to 2007’s best CJ amp leads me to ARC.

The true test would be to compare 2022’s best from both companies in a fair multi day trial, after having established the best power cords, interconnects, and speakers for each in your own familiar system.

But I don’t know of even one single dealership that carries both product lines for demos.

We have a local ARC dealer, but he won’t take trades and he has minimal show stock. There is also a local Wilson dealer, His show stock is better than the ARC dealer, but he isn’t a trader either. There are no legitimate CJ dealers anywhere nearby. CJ dealers, when you find them, are nearly all tiny shops run out of spare bedrooms. I’d like to see the legitimate list of exceptions. I guess one is Steve Javaherian’s High Performance Stereo. He has a warehouse open by appointment. But how many bricks and mortar stores with regular daily hours carry CJ?

I propose that someone compile a confirmed (by calling the dealer) list.


At this point for me, the momentum stallers have been the sheer weight of the LP275Ms and the ground loop issue every time they get moved. The weight is why I bought the REF 75 SE. The REF 75 SE showed off greater detail and was responsive to power cord and interconnect changes. And its general excellence and lack of finickiness are endearing.

I do wish there could be a “bake off” between the $55k REF 6 SE + REF 160Ms and the $78k ART88 + ART108A. Although when I write those numbers down, I know which I would choose.

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes, I wouldn't sell off the REF75SE either, that's a keeper! Even the way they've constructed the internals is marvellous! I had my doubts about those input cables going from front to back over the top but my CJ tech, who also services ARC gear, said this was one of the best layouts he's comes across. Those wires aren't ordinary wires... they're made of high grade Teflon so they can withstand extreme heat. The layout is completely isolated from input to output, so it was possible to do this in this particular design.

A small story: when our very Quad whisperer was called in to fix both my Quads, he actually had a REF75. He was using it to drive his Quads... so that was the first version I tried since he highly recommended I do so. At that time, I had the 125SA and the ACT2. I wouldn't say the REF75 was better but it added something quite different. Once my Quads were fixed, he told me that the new SE version was just introduced at our ARC dealer so we both rushed to the demo. It was glorious, so he bought it! We tested both versions for endless hours and both agreed the SE version was tops. Then I ventured towards ML stats and the rest is history...

However, he was getting on in years... and had been inundated with Quad repairs coming out of China. Absolute rubbish, so he called me up and said that's it, can't do it anymore and wanted to know if I was willing to learn how to fix ESL's. I just didn't have the time since I was working full time. So he went out and bought the Maggie's 3.7i. The REF75SE couldn't drive the Maggie's well, so he sold it off and bought a Sanders Magtec amp. That drove the Maggie's really well, no issues. He closed up the service centre, called it a day and then went on long service leave.
After nearly 2 years we caught up, he still has the maggies and Quads but heavily regrets selling the REF75SE and these are pretty rare down unda. 4 more years passed on, I haven't heard from him at all, no family members either, not a soul has heard any news... so we're all wondering if that's it, most probably gone to the after life.

He regrets selling the REF75SE, and we all agreed to that and I regret having not learned how to fix stats!

There's no other person like him, I have come across who's passionate about stats. He could listen for a moment or look at them and know straight away what was wrong. Most of the newbie techs these days don't even know where to begin... hence they don't fix, they just replace. Any bozo can replace a part... fixing takes an awful lot of skill and most of all passion!

Cheers, RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

I suppose “best vs best” would be ARC’s REF 10 rather than REF 6SE. And maybe either the REF 750 or new REF 320M.

That would put the prices in favor of CJ.

Really, I’m not sure that you care about flagships once you get into each company’s highest echelon. It really depends on the room and speakers.

[admin]

Great story RJ.

I'm always saddened by Quads decision to move production to China. It's one of those brands with a great history that moved production offshore. Not to say that production in Asia is inherently a bad thing, but Quad still gives me the feeling that this is a British company that has "sold out" for cheap labor and lower standards.

The Arc REF75SE is clearly a special unit. It is not right for every speaker but that can be said of any amp. I too would be hesitant to let it go.

[AnotherJohnson]

The Arc REF75SE is clearly a special unit. It is not right for every speaker but that can be said of any amp. I too would be hesitant to let it go.

When pressed on which trade would do the most for my system, the trade for the pair of 250s or the trade for the 6SE, the dealer said that to his ears the trade for the 250s would be the more dramatic.

Like me before the 75SE, he thinks more power will improve the clarity, articulation, and authority of the bass.

I’m going for the amps for two reasons. First, I’m a sucker for big monoblocks. Second, in a few months I’m expecting ARC to be willing to upgrade my 6 to SE status for less cash than is required to trade a 6 on a 6 SE.

And a third reason is that I really do love both the REF 6 and the Foundation Series LS28SE. They are the most enjoyable preamps I’ve ever owned. I’m not in a hurry to change them.

But then again, I really love the REF 75 SE too … so maybe this whole upgrade idea is ill guided.

At least I’m clear on trading the Revels and keeping the Wilsons.

[AnotherJohnson]

I’m reading Ken Kessler’s “Making The Music Glow” again. This is the book commissioned to celebrate ARC’s first 50 years.

It’s actually a really informative history, written in the style of a journalist, and including many interview based segments. I mentioned it earlier, probably in this very thread.

I was reading p 124 tonight (which is in the middle of the interview with Engineering Technician Chris Ossanna). This grabbed me by the lapels.

Quoting:

I think what we learned that made the product a lot better was that as much internal wiring as you can get rid of, the better. And I know this flies in the face of a lot of companies that believe in point-to-point wiring, but we’ve actually found that when put it in a circuit board and seal it and lock it in to that design, that the circuit trace is never going to move. And it‘s always going to stay in the same relationship to the other traces around it.

This is something you can’t say about point-to-point wiring. … What we found is there’s a lot of electromagnetic interference when you have wires inside a product, radiation fields and things like that, HUM ISSUES, GROUNDING ISSUES (emphasis added). A properly laid-out circuit board is really the best for our products to make them sound good.

[admin]

I was reading p 124 tonight (which is in the middle of the interview with Engineering Technician Chris Ossanna). This grabbed me by the lapels.

Quoting:

I think what we learned that made the product a lot better was that as much internal wiring as you can get rid of, the better. And I know this flies in the face of a lot of companies that believe in point-to-point wiring, but we’ve actually found that when put it in a circuit board and seal it and lock it in to that design, that the circuit trace is never going to move. And it‘s always going to stay in the same relationship to the other traces around it.

This is something you can’t say about point-to-point wiring. … What we found is there’s a lot of electromagnetic interference when you have wires inside a product, radiation fields and things like that, HUM ISSUES, GROUNDING ISSUES (emphasis added). A properly laid-out circuit board is really the best for our products to make them sound good.

This makes a lot of sense and perhaps this is why CJ gear sounds as good as it does. Certainly not because of complexity.

[AnotherJohnson]

Three things came to my mind. First all the trouble that point to point brings with guitar amps which are afflicted by hum RFI emi and ground issues. Yet it is a prized feature.

Second the feature is touted by Prima Luna. The PL amp I had here several months ago sounded horrible. You don’t listen to features or specs.

Of course point to point is a plus for maintaining and repair.

Last, there are a lot of wires in older CJ monoblocks. Is this related to their finicky unwillingness to readily adapt to new environments?

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes, plenty of wires in much older CJ gear, no doubt! As the decades passed and circuits were further refined utilizing less parts, with better layouts, CJ's newer LP series and Art series amplifiers have come a long way, better in every aspect I would say. However, there are cases where those unwanted noises do happen. This is something that seriously needs to be looked at, though I guess in 90% of home installations it's not an issue. But what about the 10%? Do those owners put up with these nigglies or do they just drop the brand altogether and go for something else... I really don't know. Very similar issues I was having with my ACT2/S2, and the LP260M amps but never had any issues with the CT5 & the LP125M's that I'm currently using, quiet as! Pin drop silence so to speak... other than static issues when using the aluminum disc mat from Spec. I don't use that mat any longer, changed it for a specialized rubber mat made in Germany, excellent results!

Just this arvo I was at my techs place to pick some glorious EH 6H30Pi tubes for my CT5. He recommended that I try the Gold Pin version just for fun, and see if there's anything "Golden" about it... Well, at this stage, all I can say is there's nothing very golden at all, other than they sound fabulous! I did also notice that the extra gold plating on the pins, allows for a tighter more secure contact. It feels tight and snug, doesn't wobble one bit, so I guess that's a golden point!

Anyhoo, in the far back stacked on three shelves low and behold, there were some really nice vintage ARC gear. The legendary VT200 MK2's I think it was... anyway some massive tube monoblocks, partnered with the matching ARC preamps and ARC DAC. It came to my tech as a full set from a crazy customer who wanted to trade it in for some other gear... what? I guess he was more interested in professional guitar amps, so that's what he walked out with leaving this glorious Classic ARC gear behind. Now my tech won't even think of selling it, as these are true collectors items, one of a kind and sound superb! Forget about very high definition, micro detail, neutrality, pin point resolution and squeaky clean notes... it's sort of there but that's not the focus. Rather, the musicality is outstanding!

And so I returned home very eager to try out the EH Gold Pins, and yep! The Fat Lady sang! Very very nice, a real classic tube, 3D full immersive sound that's listenable for endless hours. So why change I asked myself, this Classic CJ gear is a keeper! To let this sort of gear go I must be absolutely nuts, or totally retarded with a truck load of cash, to go for newer amplifiers that will set me back close to 100grand. I must be loosing my marbles! So with that said and after that experience, I learned that although it's been staring me right in the face, I didn't realize how good the gear was until someone else had to point it out.

So the tingle and itch are gone... I'm now on a fact finding mission just to experience what the new ART top of line has to offer, that's all. Won't be engaging in anything other than that. Things are getting really damn expensive here, just bought a coffee on the drive up. My regular café I used to pay only $2.50 for a small, now it's $4.60 for that same small Latte with no sugar! You gotta be kidding. I asked what milk is it? Is it from a rare camel or Giraffe or something... no just that everything is pricey nowadays so must increase all prices! Very soon the plastic lid will be an added cost I guess, so that would be a total of $6.00 for a small and in just three sips it's gone!

Having said that, I guess used gear is the way to go, if you're really keen on achieving SOTA levels. The gear is out there, just be cautious that these precious items are not Toyota engines under Ferrari hoods... there's an awful lot of such gear floating around in all corners. Sneaky buggers... must be caught and dealt with!
I think AJ has done really well here to source some top quality ARC gear that's proved to be superior in all aspects, such gear is also a keeper. So it's not necessary to visit the bank and write up a cheque for 100grand... Just tread carefully, keep your eyes open and you'll find something of high value. Give it a health check and obtain a service approval and you're good to go! For many wonderful years...

I've already got exactly what I need and it's perfect for the current type of installation. So, I guess it's time to pour that scotch, light that cigar!
And enjoy those fine tunes... WOOF!
RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

Unless my perspective changes dramatically in future years, I can’t imagine writing a $100k check for gear. And yet I’ve run over $200k worth of gear through my assorted systems over the last several years.

I like to trade, incrementally gaining when possible. I do my best to buy low so that when trade time comes, I’m in a decent cash position.

The little Mom & Pop CJ dealers are often good traders because they have minimal overhead and no payroll. So they’re happy to make 10% on a deal. And the margin is quite good so they can offer what appears to be fair value on recent model CJ gear. Recent model is the key. You’re not likely to get much in trade on a 10+ year old model, with some exceptions.

But we’ve gotten to the point where prices are so high for new models that even with a good trade, the prices seem absurd. Suppose you get someone to give you $15k for your two year old ART 27A in trade against a pair of $48k ART 108As. You’ve still got to cough up $33k, which only a few years ago would have bought you the flagship monoblocks without any trade.

It’s as if you’re renting to own.

So I’m never chasing the latest and greatest. I’m nearly always one or two generations behind. The price I pay is never owning a true SOTA system. I keep my main LP12 up to SOTA, but nothing else is anywhere close to SOTA flagship.

I might still have CJ if the spread between what could trade and what new cost were smaller. Because if that had been the case, I doubt that I would have experimented with Levinson or ARC.

[AnotherJohnson]

I keep coming back to the wish that there were a legitimate bricks and mortar dealer who carried CJ, ARC, and Wilson, Magnepan, Martin Logan or other credible speakers. Even B&W, Focal, Sonus Faber, or others.

How can you compare true SOTA electronics? We are forced to read reviews, rely on audio memory, etc.

This hobby can be exasperating. So many issues seem like voodoo. Power cords, speaker cables, interconnects, the room, fuses, the program material … RJ is on the right track … it is least aggravating to forget about SOTA and enjoy what you’ve got.

And yet my gut feeling is that all the gear churning I’ve done this past year as I’ve tried to consolidate into one great system has been more educational than most prior years in my journey combined.

[Big Dog RJ]

Roger that captain!
RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

I met Trent Suggs, owner of ARC, this past week. He says they’ve rethought the FCPO upgrade policy and they’re going to allow the upgrades after all. So my Ref 6 is now on track to become a Ref 6SE. I think this is a good call on their part.

[Big Dog RJ]

That's excellent news AJ. I think you'll be quite pleased with your SE upgrade on the REF6. As if it's not already sounding too shabby... it's bloody graate maaate! As we Aussies say.

Now just sit back and keep those fine tunes playing!
Woof! RJ

[admin]

Definitely good news. Offering upgrade for the same base unit is a really good idea in my opinion.

[AnotherJohnson]

Monster Monoblocks are problematic.

The LP275Ms had their quirky hum issue until plugged into a common power strip.

Not the REF 250SEs. They won’t run at all.

Why not? You ask.

The building is a subject to recent NEC guidelines which require arc fault circuit interrupt breakers.

For whatever reason, the ARC REF 250 SEs trip $60 AFCI breakers. No problem with pre 2014 regular $7 breakers. They run on those perfectly.

They don’t even have to be on to trip the AFCI style. Just plugging them in, and “poof!” Circuit tripped.

I’ve bought some of the regular breakers and I’ve studied my box. If it is argued that my “big room” is a shop, rather than “living space,” I can put the regular breakers in legally.

I wonder if the AFCI breakers were an issue for the LP275Ms too. They didn’t trip any breakers, but the way AFCI handles the common is asking for hum.

The LP275Ms predated the NEC requirements for expanded AFCI breaker rules. But the 2015 REF 250 did not.

AFCI breakers appear to be common enough that ARC recognizes the issue.

Well, I’ll fix this tomorrow. I can’t run the big amps off a 75 foot extension cord to the old part of the house.