Western Electric - Which tubes do you want made in America?

[Matty]

Here is the link to show interest and select or make new tube-type suggestions

https://www.westernelectric.com/expand

[admin]

I recommended they start making KT120's. We'll see.

[AnotherJohnson]

Lots of other tubes missing too.

6922, KT150, 6N30, 12AT7, 6550 come to mind quickly, and many more.

Basically, my interest is in any tubes used in 21st century products by Rivera, Conrad Johnson, or Audio Research Corp.

Thanks for sharing the link.

[Big Dog RJ]

Making tubes is not just about making tubes... it's far greater than that. The Saratov factory was one of the most vast tube manufacturers at the time, sadly it was bombed!

How much of and when they recovered to what's referred to as Tube Tooling, is the question. Every tube made on earth requires tube tooling, and most new factories don't have the vast libraries of tools to make different kinds of tubes, hence the reason why they make only a handful.

The Japs made tubes way back in the 60's & 70's, they don't manufacture tubes any more. Any Japanese ones that are out there, National brand etc, made at the Matsushita factory are no longer in production, these are all NOS type.
Matsushita is now more focused in making submarines and bullet trains.

I was having this very same discussion this arvo with my two good mates, tube supplier and techie. According to them and after several discussions with overseas suppliers, the real tube manufacturers would still have extensive tooling libraries and one of those factories happens to be the very one that makes all the EH, Genalex, Sovteks Tungsols you name it, and it's located in Russia!

So, I guess at this stage, it's certainly great to know that other countries would like to take upon the manufacturing process of our precious tubes, however we don't think that they have the required tooling... hence will just have to wait it out and see what becomes of these Russian manufacturers.

Whereas tube suppliers are concerned they're totally different from the manufacturer, they only supply, they don't make anything and have to rely on logistics and supply chains, same goes with CJ, ARC and all of them.

It's a good thing my trusted supplier gets his stock directly from the factory but due to this madness of Putin's power... the factories have stopped production for the moment.

Hopefully, the main suppliers like Upscale & Watford will have stock to suffice and the factories can start up again soon, the question everyone's asking is when...?

Best, RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

As the last US based tube manufacturer was closing their operations, William Z. Johnson did three things (according to the ARC 50th Anniversary book).

First, he made on offer to buy the factory. But the manufacturer warned him that he would need the engineering department to keep it going, and the engineers were all retiring. So he did not buy it.

Second, he bought their remaining inventory.. reportedly, it lasted for several years, but was eventually depleted.

Third, he tried to pivot the company to solid state. In spite of his best efforts, reviewers complained bitterly, and after finding suitable foreign suppliers, he pivoted back to tubes.

Later in life he said that ARC could make SS components that sounded as good as tube based components, but that for the same level of effort, he could always make the tube gear sound better.

FWIW, the lack of tooling can be overcome, but the redevelopment activity takes time and money that may be difficult to justify.

FWIW#2, Kevin Deal seems to think that shipping from tube manufacturers in Russia is only delayed. Time will tell.

[admin]

The panic buying has started. I was talking with my friend at work yesterday (who just bought tubes for his guitar amp) and he was saying that many places are sold out and prices have gone up dramatically. We'll see when things get back to normal.

[AnotherJohnson]

https://upscaleaudio.com/pages/vacuum-tubes

[Joe Appierto]

As RJ rightly points out the current war in Ukraine is adding a good deal of uncertainty into the future prospects for tube manufacturing. The American-owned New Sensor plant in Saratov is a case in point. What would happen if the Russian government decided to nationalize that production facility? The Chinese Shuguang plant was closed in 2019 most likely as a result of the pandemic. We've seen plants before close never to reopen such as the Ei plant in Sarajevo that was bombed during the war in Kosovo.

Uncertain times for sure. Perhaps, however, the ball will be picked up by others such as Western Electric here in the US.

[AnotherJohnson]

I hope that the high fidelity component manufacturers are banding together to encourage a solution to this problem.

I wish that Audio Research had successfully acquired a US based tube manufacturing plant back 40 years ago when WZJ was working the problem.

Who knows what stores CJ and ARC have in pocket. Maybe it’s good that they’ve priced them so high that few buy them.

One things for sure … they’re going to have to get people comfortable with the long term supply or their new sales will dry up.

I’m set for several years, and I’m old, so it may be enough. But young guys are going to have to think twice before buying something that takes a bunch of Russian tubes.

The doctors, lawyers, and wall streeters who buy $200,000 turntables and $350,000 speakers ought to be ready to fund a new tube manufacturing capability in the US.

[Big Dog RJ]

Liked that last point mentioned by AJ; the big wigs who buy half a million dollar systems, wall street geezers and like should be able to fund a tube plant in the US... ha!
Speaking of which, I honestly don't think those big wigs even know what real music is! At that level where a full setup could cost close to a million or even over, it's nothing to do with the music, rather it's the gear! Plus their egos! First ego, then gear, and last music...

You don't have to spend anywhere near that amount to really enjoy the music, seriously mate! We all know that but you try explaining that to one of those geezers, they never get it.

Anyway, getting back to the factories and tube tooling, my tech was also saying that although these tubes were made in Russia, they still had to depend on the West for certain parts, like plates, anodes etc. It's the intricate parts and the tooling that they had/ owned. On a positive note, there is the possibility where some US manufacturers have acquired the necessary tooling, and so with some extra effort they should be able to put things together.

Further discussed, countries like Germany and UK and others in Europe also have such capabilities, so overall there are other solutions. I also believe, moving forwards, none of the gear we own is ever made in Russia...?

So just think about this for a minute... here we are working our butts off, hard earned dollars and buying our precious tube gear mostly from the US, Europe or Japan, and yet we're using bloody Russian tubes in them! Why? Just because they sound so damn good... c'mon maties,

I seriously don't think the teams at CJ, ARC, VTL, VAC, Manley Labs, Audio Note, Kondo, Aries Ceret and so on are going to wait on Russia for such a small part like a tube, although it plays an important part, and allow their companies/ businesses to suffer. No way! They will forge ahead and find other solutions, in fact when you take a close look at the tubes that are currently in our gear, there are alternatives! It's just that we've never tried them simply because...

I'm not fussed one bit about Russian supply at all. Infact, if you can't find a Tungsol KT120, there are others that are just as good; GE 6550, Mullard KT88, there are other variants of KT88"s and a host of 6550's... small signal tubes plenty of suppliers from UK, Holland and Germany... so what's all the fuss about Russia?

First and foremost, Putin should get a huge rocket up his ass! For what he's doing is an absolute crime, humanitarian crisis at large, and yet he's still firing away... simply because he knows that no one can physically touch him! But not for long.

In the meantime, I'm sure we'll see other brands of our popular series of tubes coming into general supply. They will be well built and made to standard, and I'm sure teams like CJ and ARC will ensure they're putting in the best into their gear, and not cheap unreliable stuff.

So maties, don't stress just relaaax... sit back and enjoy those fine tunes!
Cheers, RJ

[SteveFord]

Maybe we'll get lucky and Putler will retire like Stalin did before he totally loses it.

I have enough small tubes for several lifetimes, if push comes to shove with the power tubes I'll shelve the VTLs and go SS or some sort of hybrid units.
I was wondering what made me buy another MF-2275 after I just sold one because it just seemed kind of crazy and then all hell breaks loose.

[AnotherJohnson]

It does give a warm and fuzzy feeling to know you’ve got a solid state back up.

If the Levinson issue I’m dealing with doesn’t get resolved soon, I may jump ship and pick up a McIntosh solid state integrated “just to have.”

[Big Dog RJ]

Speaking of Integrateds, our well known neighbour ARC has just released the i50. Fitted with 6550's and 6922's, comes in three very nice colours, and two tubes in front with input selection display and level control... very cool.
The input selector and volume control dials are located on top of face plate, so as to give the i50 a simple look from the front. The 6550's definitely do it, just heard it drive a pair if fine Sonus Faber monitors, very nice indeed.

For a more intimate setting, small jazz ensemble, vocals and simple strings arrangements, excellent! However, on the much larger scale and a bit more thrust, obviously the bigger reference systems are more suited. Nice little set up though to have as a second system in the bedroom or study or something. Small rooms with dimensions of 10 sq feet ought to do just fine!

Now comparing this with the one and only CJ CAV45... well the CAV45 beats it hands down. It just surpasses it in every angle, it's not even funny. Just by looking at both sides by side, the CAV45 has got some serious power supplies which the little i50 just doesn't have, and the CAV45 is also well capable of driving larger speakers in bigger rooms. I've owned both versions driving Quad ESL 2905's and 2912's, so no issues there in a 20ft sq room.

Cheers to those tube integrateds!
RJ

[MattHooper]

It does give a warm and fuzzy feeling to know you’ve got a solid state back up.

I think we have different feelings about solid state amps

[AnotherJohnson]

It does give a warm and fuzzy feeling to know you’ve got a solid state back up.

I think we have different feelings about solid state amps

Our feelings will evolve as the tube situation clarifies.

If tubes are done, I will happily embrace solid state. I want to still have amplified music at home.

[decooney]

I recommended they start making KT120's. We'll see.

I sent two requests, asking them to consider making these output tubes as they've become more popular past 3-7 years with some manufacturers. I run different brand tube preamplifiers and mono amplifiers designed to run only KT120s and KT150s with larger transformers and higher plate voltages just for these OPT tubes, only. Currently have two quads of each type, after that, who knows and would buy them from WE if they are not overly greedy on price.

KT120
KT150
+6SN7

[admin]

I'm genuinely interested in seeing if WE will gear up and start making a greater variety of tubes. This may be their chance to grab a significant share of the market. It's unlikely that another opportunity like this will present itself in the near future.

[AnotherJohnson]

WE has geared up to create more market for their current tube. This art deco amp is only $14999, and it will be available in three colors.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?_kx=8ziiSjf ... e=youtu.be

[AnotherJohnson]

When you’re wishing CJ would sell their tubes at lower prices, think about the $699 price tag on the low power Western Electric (made in USA) tubes.

Also, if you watch the video, you’ll eventually see what Cat describes as a nickel finish … but Kevin points out that they are also making one in champagne gold.

And last, this amp appears to be an integrated with a possible phono stage option. And at only 20 wpc (less than the ART 27A), they break into the video with the news flash that they did a killer job driving some 87 dB/W/m (medium efficiency) speakers.

[admin]

I just saw that the new issue of Stereophile came in the mail yesterday. I haven't read it yet, but the cover is a Western Electric unit. Although a well established brand, I wonder if they will increase their presence in the audiophile community for not some making equipment but also perhaps shifting into a bigger player in the tube market?