GAT1 versus GAT2

[DB2]

I'm in the market for a used preamp and have found both a GAT and a GAT2 available. The GAT2 is obviously more expensive ($16K vs. $11K). For those who have heard both, is the cost increase justified?

- Bob

[AnotherJohnson]

It used to be possible to upgrade the GAT to the GAT2.

Ask CJ for the cost today. If it’s less than $5k, buy the GAT and upgrade it if you’re not satisfied. Otherwise, get the GAT2 right out of the box.

As for “is the difference worth it?”, the answer is “worth it to whom?” Only you can answer this question for you.

For me, if I were going to buy a used GAT, I’d spring for the used GAT2. There would then be no doubt in my mind about being at the state of the art.

FWIW, I may buy a GAT 2 when I finally consolidate my systems into one system. But in the meantime, it’s awful hard to beat my ET7s2 or my LS28 SE. I have no incentive to change.

[DB2]

Good idea. I'll check with CJ on the upgrade cost.

[Big Dog RJ]

Very correctly pointed out by AJ there.

The difference is not vast nor is it hugely positive either. Between the two, its more to do with quietness over anything else. I used the GAT S1 for a short while, over a few months looking after the unit whiles the owner was overseas... It was a fantastic opportunity to have one in the system, and it definitely enhanced the overall listening experience. Upon his return, he upgraded to the S2, and I had the opportunity to experience it as well.

After about two years, he decided to move on and wanted to know if I was interested. I took it home first, kept it for about a month and then returned it. He asked me what was wrong. I said nothing, it's fabulous but very very neutral, almost to the point where I was getting bored. He laughed and said the same thing, hence the very reason he was giving it up.

Both of us have ML stats, he has the Ren15a's and now he uses a Momentum preamp with the ART150. Sounds truly awesome and very engaging, plus on tube gear, we both prefer either the ACT2 or CT5. That type of musical engagement, coloured or whatever it may be, it's something in the tonality that gets our attention.

The latest gen of GAT preamps don't have it, they're more faithful to the music and what's on the recording. So, I guess this is a good thing! As for us, it's more to do with personal preference and not the latest being the greatest. I don't subscribe to such things.

I have described the two previously under different tabs in the preamp section... but just to reiterate:
GAT S1: very smooth, superb control and drive over the power amplifiers, very quiet and neutral.

GAT S2: all of the above, with extreme quietness and more focus on the recording. No caramel effect at all!

Question; is it worth the cost in upgrade? Personally, no!
However, from a different person's perspective, upgrading gear has always been the norm... so for them the added cost may be justified, I wouldn't know. As AJ stated, only you can answer that, since it's your own hard earned dollars.

Cheers and all the best,
RJ

[pfmmx]

Both the GAT1 and GAT2 are great preamps. You can't go wrong with either.

First consideration is what is the condition and ownership. I have a buddy that can age any motorized vehicle or audio product 5 years in only one year of ownership. It a gift in a bad way. Don't buy anything from him-ha-ha.

I have a GAT1. Up until this point, I have not upgraded.

As RJ mentioned, GAT2 is quieter and a little more dynamic. If I listened to alot of classical or jazz, I would lean this direction.

GAT1 has a little more warmth(I am biased that direction) For what its worth, I think it is a little better on female vocal and music with vocals in general.

With the GAT1 or GAT2, you can change the presentation nicely with a tube change. They are very easy and convenient to change. I could spend alot of time on this topic. I have a bunch of 6922's and a bunch of opinions(Either good or bad) For best results, always buy matched pairs for your
GAT. I hope this is helpful. Both GAT versions are top notch & very reliable.

[paulCJ]

A little late to the party, almost 2 years late, LOL, but the sound quality differences between a PV10AL and a GAT-S1 preamp? I am in a similar situation of potentially upgrading to a GAT pre.

[AnotherJohnson]

A little late to the party, almost 2 years late, LOL, but the sound quality differences between a PV10AL and a GAT-S1 preamp? I am in a similar situation of potentially upgrading to a GAT pre.

That’s like asking about the difference between a 1990 Ford Taurus and a 2018 Lincoln Navigator.

Some people will tell you there’s no difference because they’ll both provide transportation.

To some extent they’re right. But the PV10AL is not a legendary preamp. It was/is a more modestly built model on the way between the PV8 and PV11. Even the Audio Cheapskate was unwilling to recommend it at the end of its run.

Obviously your mileage may vary. If you have the coins, the GATs will get you clearer, tonally balanced, more articulate sound if paired with appropriate speakers and amp.

At the same time, if you go for a GAT, it may lead to budget busting upgrades as you go on the quest to chase down the true magic. Be careful…

[Big Dog RJ]

Oh no chance Charlie! Between a PV10 series and the GAT, there's no comparison! That's a very unfair comparison, such that the PV10 is not even within the Premier series to begin with.

If it were comparing the ACT2 or the ET7 series, that would be a more realistic line-up. The Premier series of preamps incorporated the Composite Triode. From the Advanced Composite Triode CJ moved furrher onto the Enhanced Triode topology. Preamps within this design were the original ART preamp, the Premier series preamps, the ACT2, CT5 and further advanced towards the ET series, and finally the GAT, which was CJ's top of the line for quite a while.

The GAT still used the Advanced Triode circuit, which is pretty much Class A all the way from Input to Output stage. It's these Class A circuits that are only found within these categories of preamps that is not part of the PV series design. So, from PV to GAT, it's worlds apart. Several generations of top quality preamps have passed through to arrive at the GAT.

Then comes the all new ART88 preamp, currently CJ's top of the line ART series. This is again quite different to anything CJ had ever produced, such that it has no SS buffered output stage, rather it's an all tube design, and once again based on Class A circuits from top to bottom.

The other thing is this, if you're planning on getting the GAT and it's sole purpose is to replace a preamp / upgrade from a PV10AL let's say... this is not a justifiable upgrade. The associated gear that has been used in conjunction with the PV10 is of a certain level and it has probably reached its threshold. The moment you plug in a GAT, although you will hear a difference, it won't be the GAT's true performance.

In order to obtain the full potential of the sheer brilliance of the GAT, the rest of your gear has to be on par... otherwise forget it, just stick with the PV series. This is where the vicious cycle begins! So if you're considering the GAT, you need to also consider the power amps and the rest of the gear. There will only be marginal improvements but enhance things across your system then get the GAT, and the improvements will be significant!

For example, our good mate Admin, upgraded his power amp from the Evo2000 to the ART series 1 monoblocks. These were CJ's top of the line at the time. However, during his upgrade experience, he was still using the much older PV12 preamp. It wasn't until he finally got hold of an ET7S2, that he discovered the true potential of both his top of the line pre-power combination. This very combination elevated the performance of his Maggie's (MG20) to higher levels.

We've all done this sort of upgrade during one phase in our systems but it hasn't provided the full potential until we matched the pre-power combination correctly.

So, as very rightly pointed out by AJ, if you're considering the GAT, get ready for further upgrades across your system. This is just the beginning of whole lot of spend.

Cheers, RJ

[admin]

For example, our good mate Admin, upgraded his power amp from the Evo2000 to the ART series 1 monoblocks. These were CJ's top of the line at the time. However, during his upgrade experience, he was still using the much older PV12 preamp. It wasn't until he finally got hold of an ET7S2, that he discovered the true potential of both his top of the line pre-power combination. This very combination elevated the performance of his Maggie's (MG20) to higher levels.

Spot on. The Evolution 2000 and PV12 were lovely units. But no real comparison to the ET7s2 and ART amps. I wasn't directly looking for upgrades but a local sale of the ART amps came up at an unbelievably good price so I couldn't pass it up. When I heard how much it elevated the sound, I started looking for a new preamp. Again, scoring the ET7s2 just took the entire system to another level. A level that I never would have thought possible with the Evo 2000 and PV12.

I completely concur with the others, the PV10 is not going to be in the same league as the GAT. In all fairness to the PV10, neither will the price.

[paulCJ]

Thanks AnotherJohnson, BigDog & Admin. My current amplification is a PS Audio M1200 monoblock (tube input stage, ss output). Speakers are the FR20. I also have 2 other preamps, a Levinson No. 523 and a BHK pre. The 523 to M1200 is by far the cleanest combo. The PV10AL to MV55 is the best for female vocals, by far. The BHK to M1200's are in between, have some of the magic of the CJ, are cleaner than CJ but nowhere near as clean as the 523. Both the BHK & PV10AL are more musical, with violins sounding more real, and sounding great with classical & jazz, but meh with rock. The 523 to M1200 is much better with rock, and does sound great with classical & jazz, but the CJ combo and the PS Audio combo has instruments that sound more real. So was trying to get an idea of HOW MUCH different the GAT-S1 is from the PV10AL to help me understand if is worth it to get rid of 2 preamps for a GAT. I would like a much cleaner sound but still want that female vocal magic.

[admin]

That's some great gear. Where a GAT would fall into the mix is hard to say, but all we can say is that that performance compared to the PV10AL is going to be on an entirely different level.

BTW- how do you like the FR20? Those made some big buzz when they came out but I haven't had the opportunity to listen myself.

[Big Dog RJ]

In that case the GAT will outperform all of those preamps, from the first note onwards. Whether it's a GATS1 or GATS2, none of those preamps can match the performance level of CJ's finest. Even though the GAT has been replaced by the ART88.

Just for comparison levels at a very high bar, the top of the line ARC, VTL, VAC, CAT, Lamm, Aries Cerat, CH Precision, Solution, Momentum, Dartzeel, Burmester, Vitus, Pass Labs, Gryphon and others of THIS calibre, is where the GAT and ART series gear sits. I've had numerous auditions with this gear and have spent endless hours in an awe-inspiring experience, these are some of the finest highend audio has to offer.

The only major downside to all this fine gear is that it's bloody expensive! I'm not sure if it's the materials, parts and circuits or the designer's intellect, I guess it's the sum of all parts, including the passion of such designers.

So, placing in the GAT, yes will elevate performance further. Placing in a few "other" amplifiers on par with the quality of the GAT, will take your system to another dimension!

Cheers, RJ

[paulCJ]

Thanks admin, thanks BigDog.
I love the FR20, clean, smooth and magical is the best way to describe their sound. My previous speakers, the Sonist Audio Concerto 4 had tons of magic, but wasn't clean. The FR20 has tons of magic, and the midrange on up is just quick & clean & open. My "complaints" regarding the shortcomings of the No. 523 preamp and BHK preamp should be taken from the point of ultimate criticism. Both still sound wonderful, even though I can hear minor faults. The M1200's seem to match well with all 3 of the different preamps.

[admin]

If you can get a GAT in there, I think you would be one happy camper. I'm sure it would complement the FR20. I know Paul McGowan at PS Audio is very proud of that speaker.

[paulCJ]

Thanks Admin. I know you might be partial to the ET7-S2, but is there much of a difference between the ET7-S2 and the GAT-S1, or are they mostly similar in sonic signature?

[admin]

I think that's a loaded question. The GAT was the highest level preamp that CJ offered for that generation. The ET7s2 obviously wasn't but is still in the current line and #2. I think you could make arguments for both and I can't comment on their sound as I never had the opportunity to do a direct A/B comparison. I think you should also look at the cost. If you can score a good deal on a unit (regardless of which one it is), that actually may be the best way to go. In all honesty, that is how I make most of my big purchases. And if at the end of the day you decide it's not right for you, you can always sell it and not take a (significant) loss.

[paulCJ]

Admin, a loaded question is the only type of question I ask, LOL. But seriously, am thinking about a newer/higher end CJ preamp, and just looking for generalities that help. I like your mindset regarding a good deal, as it makes the most sense and either would be a significant upgrade for me.

[AnotherJohnson]

As I’ve gone through several five figure preamps here in the past five or six years, the clearer (literally) it has become that there are major differences in these products.

Unlike many listeners, I tend to like all of these recent or current products and would characterize them all as “good” if judged on sound quality alone.

But there are significant sonic differences that separate the good into a hierarchy. And the ergonomic differences and feature differences are huge.

At this point, I would characterize the CJ high end as minimalist. CJ offers pleasing sound. The higher models do have the potential to sound better than the lower models. In my opinion, their interface to the user is simple and there really aren’t any special features. If you are inclined to want CJ’s simplicity in function and style, and you’re willing to take the risk that tubes are here to stay, CJ is a great choice.

If you’re open minded about features and functionality and could be happy with something else, I would strongly recommend head to head auditions… the features and functions and style differences are easy to see. The sonic differences in sound quality are only discernible through audition. You may listen and choose CJ as best.

But do listen. There are differences, and you may value something else if you did the comparison.

I remain unaware of any bricks and mortar stores in the US that are capable of doing a demo of CJ vs other high end unit from their inventory.

[Big Dog RJ]

Thanks Admin. I know you might be partial to the ET7-S2, but is there much of a difference between the ET7-S2 and the GAT-S1, or are they mostly similar in sonic signature?

I've home trialed both at length, on different types of speakers. Mostly panel types though; Maggie MG20.7's, Quad ESL 2905's & 2912's and the last was when we moved into our new place, then it was on the CLX's. The Electrostats being the most revealing of the lot, I can say the following:

ET7S2: Very detailed, open, full or air around the instruments, great 3D ambience and fantastic soundstage depth (provided it's on the recording) and an easy sense of drive, effortless control on the power amps and very neutral sounding.

GATS2: all of the above, with more of! That's about it.

Then take the ART88: all of the GATS2 plus even more neutral, as if there's no preamp in the chain... as they say, basically the best preamp is no preamp! So it gets out of the way, and allows the music to flow more freely.

At this level, it's nearly all the same, there're nothing to further add or fault. The most significant differences are based on the Recording. If the recording is mediocre then that's exactly what you're going to get! If the recording is superb, then you'll get SOTA playback.
*of course other factors considering: Power amps, source gear, system setup, accessories and room setup*

As pointed out by our trusted fellow members, you really need to audition as much as possible to determine which one YOU prefer in YOUR particular system. There's no such thing as "the best." Heck, I still absolutely love my modded CT5, couldn't really be bothered by the rest. To me, in my particular system at this stage, all of these latest and greatest don't justify the price points. My benchmark remains at 40% minimum. If any of these latest and greatest cannot win that 40% margin in sonic improvement, I'm not interested. However, the ART88 does! and it costs a bloody fortune! nearly 50grand in $AUD, so no thanks. I'm not printing money here. It's an outstanding preamp though, one of a kind and truly SOTA.

You need to be true to your values and stick with what it is that you're after... otherwise it's a roller coaster ride with a boat load of spending!
I refer to it as a spiral effect... pretty much comes back to full circle, which is personal preferences.

Cheers and all the best,
RJ

[SolderSlinger]

FWIW - I have an ET5. There's been a lot of discussion on the forum about ET5 vs ET7S2 vs GATS2. Consensus is the step from an ET5 to an ET7 does not yield a good cost per performance ratio. Folks typically go from an ET5 (or ET7) to a GATS2. The step between the ET5 to an ET7 while good, doesn't justify the effort.

Before the introduction of the ART88, GATS2 were going for $14k-ish used. I talked to CJ about what to expect going from an ET5 to a GATS2. JF gave me good advice. I stayed with the ET5 because there are other areas of my system that I need to improve to take advantage of a GATS2.

Now that the used prices of a GATS2 are lower, it's a great opportunity to buy a world class preamplifier.