Premier 5s Inbound!

[Boxcar]

Greetings!

I recently purchased a pair of Conrad Johnson Premier 5 monoblocks with the Teflon Cap upgrade and upgraded input and output jacks by Bill Thalmann as well as few other tweaks. I think they will be a lovely combination with all their EL34s, my PV5 preamp and my Martin Logan Ascent i's with shiny new panels. (PSA - if your ML panels are 20+ years old, new panels make a HUGE improvement)

I'd greatly appreciate any feedback on the Premier 5s as there's not much on the web about them:

- Is there anything to watch our for? I've heard they can be tube eaters, and at the current tube prices, I may have to set up a tube fund for 16 EL34s every few years if they go through them that quickly.

- Should I get them wired to Triode mode? I hear triode is magical on them and I should still have enough power to run the Ascents at 100wpc.

- Any particular EL34 that works well with them and hopefully has great life?

- Any thoughts on how they sound compared to other and perhaps more modern CJ monoblocks?

- Thoughts on the Teflon cap upgrade with vintage CJ gear? I've read that some people think they "lose the CJ magic" after the Teflon cap upgrade while others think it's a huge improvement.

For reference, my PV5 has had some of the signal path caps upgraded (removed the blue Eros ones, I kept the CJ ones) and I thought it was a great improvement and it didn't lose the 80's CJ magic. I also switched the PV5 to film caps in the power supply.

My current power amp is a New York Audio Labs Moscode 600 Maxi that had some updates performed by Steve Sank. It's quite a nice sounding amp with the Ascents and PV5. I was originally planning to sell it to cover the purchase of the Premier 5s but my budding audiophile girlfriend gave me a resolute "NO!" because she really likes how it sounds. She calls it "charming". Who knows, maybe the Premier 5s will change her mind.

Thanks in advance for your responses!

Boxcar

[AnotherJohnson]

You’re the first I’ve known of in years who’s running Julius Futterman’s famed NYAL Moscode amps. I did not know Futterman, but I did know Harvey Rosenberg and was a small time hobbiest dealer representing the line nearly 40 years ago.

And, of course, several of us started with PV5s as an early CJ product. Roberto and I at the least. Harvey was still going strong when the PV5 was the ticket.

It sounds like you’ll have a lot of fun. I’m on the camp that considers the CJ proprietary Teflon cap upgrade to be sonically positive.

But you do have to think about whether it’s better to put money into 35 year old gear, or move on to 21st century options. They do sound different. It’s nice to have choices.

Best of luck!

[Boxcar]

You’re the first I’ve known of in years who’s running Julius Futterman’s famed NYAL Moscode amps. I did not know Futterman, but I did know Harvey Rosenberg and was a small time hobbiest dealer representing the line nearly 40 years ago.

Wild that you used to be a NYAL dealer and met Harvey Rosenberg!

My understanding of the Moscode 600 amps was that they were designed by George Kaye who took the Futterman OTL tube regulated input stage and essentially married it to a 300wpc Hafler Mosfet output stage. The Moscode 300 doesn't use the Futterman input stage, so they supposedly sound quite different, although I've never heard one.

This is my second go-round with a NYAL Moscode 600. Back in the early 90's I had a NYAL Moscode 600 and a Minuet in A preamp that I bought used from an audio shop in Northampton, MA. I really wanted an Aragon 2002 but the used Moscode was the only thing that would fit my budget. I used the Moscode and Minuet with a pair of Vandersteen 2Cis and a Denon CD player. It still had the box with the diaper and all the wonderful Harvey Rosenberg prose. I sent that Moscode 600 to George Kaye for his stage one mods and it came back much more open sounding but lost some of it's Moscode magic. It's hard to say if I liked it better before or after the mods. The unit I have now still has the stock circuit with upgraded components (Multicaps, better binding posts, etc). When I last decided to switch amps a few years ago from my PS Audio 200CX (yes, I'm a sucker for 80's gear), I found the Moscode and decided to go on a bit of a nostalgia trip. It's been fun and has been a good sounding amp with my Martin Logans. Supposedly the Moscodes were designed to "create OTL sound while driving electrostatic speakers". They do work pretty well in that scenario.

Thanks for your feedback on the Teflon upgrade. I'm curious if the Teflon upgrade on the vintage amps brings them closer to the more modern amps for sound quality.

And yes, I'm looking to have some fun when the Premier 5s show up!

Boxcar

[AnotherJohnson]

I don’t remember a lot about those NYAL products. The IT and Super IT were the real “sellers.” Nobody was making anything near the price point that sounded as good.

Harvey was a real character. One of those personalities that deserves remembering.

Northampton- Spearit Sound? Or was there another esoteric shop there at the time?

[Boxcar]

I don’t remember a lot about those NYAL products. The IT and Super IT were the real “sellers.” Nobody was making anything near the price point that sounded as good.

Harvey was a real character. One of those personalities that deserves remembering.

Northampton- Spearit Sound? Or was there another esoteric shop there at the time?

I never heard an IT or Super IT, but they do go for quite a bit of money when they show up on the used market. Might be fun to try one.

I think it was Spearit Sound in Northampton, but it was called something else at that time. I do remember the shop being on Pleasant Street. There were like 3 different audio shops in Northampton at the time.

[admin]

I lived within driving distance of Spearit Sound. Was sad to see them close. Don't know what the story was, retiring or just not making enough money? They really were one of the biggest CJ dealers in the country.

[AnotherJohnson]

I lived within driving distance of Spearit Sound. Was sad to see them close. Don't know what the story was, retiring or just not making enough money? They really were one of the biggest CJ dealers in the country.

Ralph wanted to retire.

The idea of the staff buying it to keep it going didn’t make economic sense. Jack & Richard were very knowledgeable guys. There may have been one more whose name I forget. The whole bunch of them were old guys who’d been in the business for decades.

Ralph moved to South Carolina. He still sells stuff via Oconee Audio on USAUDIOMART occasionally. After/concurrent with the retirement, he really blew a lot of great stuff out at close to wholesale prices. Best CJ deals in history.

[AnotherJohnson]

Interesting link for Julius Futterman fans.

http://www.jacmusic.com/techcorner/ARTI ... terman.htm

[Boxcar]

Interesting link for Julius Futterman fans.

http://www.jacmusic.com/techcorner/ARTI ... terman.htm

Great article! Thanks for sharing, AJ!

[AnotherJohnson]

Regarding the closing of Spearit, what I was told at the time was that they would have space in a nearby office complex where a listening room/ hangout was planned for “appointments.” This was all pre-Covid, so Covid did not affect it. The retirement location changed with Ralph’s decision to head south. I can’t swear that there was a real plan in play, but it is what I was told.

Jack was my most trusted salesman at the time. I called him once with the goal of buying a new TT when the Valhalla power supply in my 1978 LP12 bit the dust. Instead of selling me a new TT, Jack explained that I would be better off bringing my old LP12 back to life. So he missed a sale, but without a doubt his advice was spot on.

[Big Dog RJ]

To the OP Boxcar:

Congrats on the Premier 5a's, these were the real deal in SOTA monaural amplifiers during their hey day. Couldn't get any better than this. Their power supplies are rock solid delivering high levels of current and stable voltage. Exceptional on stats and difficult loads, like those Apogee amp killers.

Now that you've done the Teflon cap upgrades and a few other tweaks, just sit back and enjoy those fine tunes!
If you were looking at changing over to Triode mode, perhaps Bill T can do this for you, if you wish to do so. Changing over to triode will reduce the power output by half but you gain resolution and midrange palpablility. That was the most significant changes in triode mode. Some liked it and others didn't, whereas they preferred the extra headroom on UL mode, so it all depends on you!

As far as which type of EL34'S to use, well first of all what type/brand of EL34's are already in there? If it sounds great then why change? Just leave it.

Over the years CJ used various kinds of EL34's but mostly during the latter stages, they started using Mullards. Before that, they used SED Winged C type for many years. It's not that one's better than the other, it's to do with CJ buying in bulk (pallet loads) and offering tube replacements to their customers, therefore preferring that the user purchases these tubes directly from them.

However, today as we are all aware, you can purchase any tube from various other suppliers, hence CJ is not the one and only place for replacement tubes...

Let the amplifiers settle in first, get used to the sound and allow those Teflons to burn-in properly. It'll take a few hundred hours, after which things will really open up into a whole new dimension. Once you are familiar with its sonic signature and you feel that you require something different or prefer a change in tubes then go searching. So first allow it to settle and get used to it first before going and changing things. One step at a time mate.

For now let it do its magic and create some beautiful tunes with your ML stats. In about 6 months to a year then decide.
All the best, RJ

[Boxcar]

Thanks for your feedback, RJ!

To date, the amplifiers haven't shipped to me. It's been over a week, and I'm starting to get a bit nervous. I spoke to the seller on Friday on when he planned to ship them and he committed to getting them out on today (Monday). He plans to ship them truck freight so hopefully I'll be able to pick them up from a local freight terminal by Thursday or so if he gets them out today.

I believe the EL34s that are currently in the amp are Electroharmonix and they're a bit old. Per the seller, the amp hasn't been used much in the last decade or so, but he thinks they may need replacement soon. He didn't really have any idea on how many hours they have on them. I was thinking of trying some of the new PS Vane Mullard copies if they need new tubes, but with today's tube prices, that's nearly $700 for the Premier 5s. Hopefully the current ones will be good for a bit or at least give me an idea if I like how they sound enough to to determine if I want to invest in new tubes.

I believe the teflon caps are fully burned in, but I have no way of knowing. I'll have to see if the sound signature evolves over the first 50 hours or so of listening.

Your comment about the Premier 5s being exceptional on stats is what I've heard from several other people and why I decided to try them out. One comment I heard was that "Premier 5s on CLS's is some of the best sound I've ever heard". Looking forward to hearing them!

boxcar

[AnotherJohnson]

One nice thing about the Premier 5s is that CJ rated them at 200 watts into 4, 8, or 16 Ohms. Later models, like my LP275Ms were only officially rated into 4 Ohms.

My LP275Ms are incredible amps though. They’ve driven everything and anything I’ve hooked them up to.

Still, the P5s were exceptional too. I’m looking forward to the OP’s impressions.

[shark23235]

You do realize that those amps, since modified by someone other than CJ, will never be serviced by conrad johnson. I wish you well but it doesn't sound good.

[Boxcar]

You do realize that those amps, since modified by someone other than CJ, will never be serviced by conrad johnson. I wish you well but it doesn't sound good.

They were modified by Bill Thalmann of Music Technology. Bill is renowned for his work on CJ gear as he was a CJ technician for 20+ years prior to striking out on his own http://www.musictechnology.com/index.html. He offers modification packages for most CJ gear that definitely improves the sound. I did a few of his mods to my PV5 and it was a definite improvement. I'm not too worried about the state of the mods on the Premier 5s, more just the age of the amps and if there's anything that may need to be addressed. If so, I'll have to figure a way to get them back to Bill to have them looked at.

So far the amps have yet to ship. I talked to the seller yesterday and he committed to shipping them out on Monday. His reasons for the delay seem genuine, so I'm confident that he will eventually get them shipped. He's planning to ship them truck freight on a pallet, so it took a bit to get quotes, etc.

boxcar

[AnotherJohnson]

+1 on BT. He is a CJ insider.

The age of the amps does work against them. If they’ve had the Teflon caps upgrade, aging won’t be as big a deal as if they hadn’t.

The amps are hard to pack up and ship. But a seller really should be ready to ship when they’re offered for sale, or limit to local pickup. You are being patient. I admire that’s… I hope it’s rewarded.

[Boxcar]

Thanks, AJ! I hope my patience is rewarded, too.

The Premier 5s supposedly have the Teflon cap upgrade already, which was done approximately 12 years ago. I don't know if the 4 large electrolytic power supply caps were addressed at that time. From the pictures, it appears they weren't. If they're original, they may soon need replacement since they are 30+ years old at this point. Thankfully they'd be pretty easy to change, although it may be difficult to find the same exact value / voltage in the same size can.

Totally agree that a seller should be ready to ship before something is offered for sale. The item should also be tested to make sure it's still working properly if it's been sitting a while. The situation has definitely been trying my patience. Yesterday the seller told me he had them strapped down and plastic wrapped on a pallet and then found out the forklift in his shop was broken so he couldn't get them loaded on a truck to take them to the freight terminal. He said he's spent 2 days working on getting the forklift going again. It's supposed to rain most of this weekend here in Chicago, so I was hoping I'd have them by now as it would be a great weekend to get acquainted with them.

I did some research into what it would take to wire them into triode mode if I am so inclined. It doesn't seem too difficult, but I'd have to open the bottom to get a look. For now, I plan to run them in UL. It would be nice if they could be switched (with a switch) to triode mode, but I'm not aware of any 8PDT switches that are rated for 500VDC and could perform such an operation. Plus it would lead to a mess of wires.

boxcar

[Merak]

Is this the pair advertised on US Audiomart? I'd messaged the seller about these also. They are still listed as available on the website. Have you already paid for them? I notice the seller wants to be paid via "friends and family" which gives the buyer no recourse. He has several interesting CJ pieces for sale but I was too wary to bite.

[admin]

I would be cautious. Not only does he say "FF" only, which is of course against paypal policy and you will be completely without recourse if there is something wrong with the unit, or he simply does not send it in the first place, but he notes "All sales are final and no returns." This is not exactly winning me over either.

A few weeks ago I was about to pull the trigger on a preamp with similar demands. Wanted to go paypal FF. Was not willing to even include an invoice for my personal records.. I got a very bad feeling about it and after some consultation with members here on CJO I came to my senses and backed out. I was very happy I did and instead bought from a reputable dealer (and member here).

Trust you gut, if it sounds too good to be true or they are blatantly breaking rules of the payment services,... do you really want to take the risk of sending 4 grand to a complete stranger that wants to do the deal "under the table", no recourse if anything goes wrong?

PS- not claiming that this particular seller is not reputable, just pointing out some common concerns.

BTW- I think this is the listing you are referencing: https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649 ... amplifers/

[AnotherJohnson]

Great minds think alike. I found this one too.

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649 ... amplifers/

I note that he has “sold” three major items recently but has no feedback on any of those sales. His 2 feedback points are from one sale in 2017 and one purchase in 2014.

I sure hope he gets the amps shipped tomorrow as promised. I’ve got fingers crossed.

But as admin advises above, the payment methods on this one do not give me a warm fuzzy feeling.

As I mentioned the other day in a different post, Audiomart is a popular selling venue for fences … but it is also a place where you really need to know who you’re dealing with if the seller doesn’t have a bricks and mortar store or a long history of good feedback.

Sigh ….

FWIW I do buy and occasionally sell on Audiomart, but this is probably because I started in another era.

We used to use a third party to hold the money. This was in the days before PayPal. You send the money. The third party clears it. The item is shipped. If the buyer determines the gear is as promised, the money is sent to the seller. I think Audiogon may still have this option available, but I may remember this wrong.

We also used to use USPS money orders because in those days mail fraud was taken seriously and Postal Inspectors saw to enforcement.

There are some guys on Audiomart who I would do business with in a heartbeat. But there are also guys there who neither Audiogon nor eBay would allow.