I took the plunge and upgraded big time!

[Cjaylundgren]

Thanks for all the posts and suggestions. I’ve come to the conclusion that my resources are better spent going the speaker/cable upgrade route (Maggie 20.7’s) rather than throwing more $ at the ART108a’s. Trading in the ART300’s and some more serious five figure cash for the ART108a’s; I’ve just reached the point of diminishing returns. I understand the whole class A vs. A/B thing, the design concept, the regulated output stage, lack of crossover distortion, etc. but, as I just said, it’s to the point where how much improvement would it really make to upgrade amps.

I’m lining up an audition of the Maggie 20.7’s along with a system wide upgrade of my Shunyata Research cabling (moving up the Shunyata research line).

As a side note, I’m also investigating adding an addition to my house to house the stereo system and return the family room to an all purpose TV/gathering space (my wife loves this plan!). But, holy cow, some of the quotes I’ve gotten from contractors have been outrageous! This whole COVID thing has really raised construction material/labor costs through the roof! Not sure how this will play out but somehow I’ll make it work. More updates to follow.

Again, I’m grateful for all the posts and comments members have posted. The diversity of opinions has really focused my plan forward in upgrading my system.

Updates to follow…

[AnotherJohnson]

I think you’re right.

[admin]

Very exciting. I agree with you, you will most likely get a bigger bump in performance from the speaker upgrade all things considered. I run a pair of maggie 20.1's and love them. The 20.7 design upgrade I am sure you will find give you an even higher level of performance. Keep us informed.

[AnotherJohnson]

The 30.7s appear to have spiked in price. They’re nearly $40k at this point.

[admin]

The 30.7s appear to have spiked in price. They’re nearly $40k at this point.

Wow, that is a big jump from $30k which is what it was before. Magnepan made a name for itself for being a "budget" speaker company. Not sure if that is still a valid claim when you are charging $40k a set. But, when you are looking at the 30.7 (or 20.7), you really are playing with the big boys so maybe this is an area that magnepan wants to go into. Who can blame them?

[AnotherJohnson]

It seems like the msrp of a high end system these days is $150k and up depending on how many sources you want to support. It’s not say to spend two to five or six times that.

[Big Dog RJ]

CjayL, that's a great decision, I've been there myself...!

You've already got a top of the line Pre & power combination, which is SOTA! To better that is totally nuts, unless you were really desperate or had a truck load of cash, like I always say. If there's something seriously "lacking" in your existing gear and you "must have" that marginal % of improvement, and finances permit then go for it! Once your system has reached a certain threshold, that's it! To go beyond will involve a complete overhaul, not just the gear... and the vicious cycle continues. Actually, it took my bank manager and my beloved wifey to help me realize this!

No disrespect to Maggie's, they are true value for money and nothing comes close in that range. I've owned nearly every Maggie model (from the early MGIIIa to the MG20), except the 30.7's. I was seriously thinking about it but when my good Aussie mate ordered a pair and was the first ever pair to land Down Unda, we were both quite underwhelmed. Such that, it sounded like a typical Maggie. There was nothing special about it, it had better parts and materials but only slightly better. The T-Feet were heavier and allowed this massive double bass panel of the 30.7's to install with a firmer footing but it still swayed at the top, as was also the case with the mids & highs panel. The fuses are pretty much the same and that annoying speaker type connection bobs are still there! The magnets used are still the same, so it was just a huge double panel on bass and a separate panel for mids & highs. The ribbon tweeter is obviously much longer and presents a wider imaging factor, the bass goes much lower so there's no need for subs. We both summarized it as follows:
1. Frame construction and rigidness + supporting T-Feet.
2. The cross-overs
3. Fuses & speaker terminals
4. Magnet array used

From the above, all areas can be seriously improved! If they had incorporated the much more powerful Neodymium magnets, this would have not only justified the added cost of the 30.7's but also improved overall performance by a BIG margin! There are many Maggie owners who have greatly improved upon those 4 areas as mentioned above, and I've heard these improvements and they are remarkable! These are true Maggie lovers and are passionate about their panels, so they go the extra effort in making them sound anything beyond their original designs, which Magnepan won't do simply because they want to keep costs low... fair enough. However, when considering the top of the line, at least they could have adopted some of these upgrades in the 30.7's but they didn't! So to us lot over here who have been with these at length, came to the conclusion that the 30.7's are pretty much an improved version of the Typani design. There's nothing "radically" different to that original concept. So after about three years, my mate returned his 30.7's and now just prefers his triple stacked horns, so that's his personal preference.

My favourite Maggie's of all time, were the MG3.7i and the MG20.7. Just recently I heard a full Maggie 2 ch + HT setup, where the owner had the 3.7i as surrounds and the MG20.7 as main speakers, in a multi channel config. The HT was quite impressive but even more so was the 2 CH presentation. He had seriously improved on every aspect of the 20.7's, from all those points above, plus gone to the extremes of very high grade caps and wiring used from Mundorf and Duelands, same parts Graz uses in his refurbed Apogee's. The frames are all aluminum and steel supported, giving a total weight of over 100kg on his gracefully modded 20.7's. They are absolutely stunning! Driven with a full array of Pass Labs gear, I can proudly say, it is by far the best Maggie 20.7's I've heard to date! The improvements and parts upgrades he's done, including the frame is WAY ahead of the 30.7's or anything that Magnepan have designed. I wanted to take pics but he wouldn't allow it because he wants this to be one of a kind, that I can relate to as I've done serious mods on my CJ gear, so I know what he's referring to.

Now, having said that, although I still do have a fondness for Maggie's and don't get me wrong, they're superb ribbon panels when driven perfectly and set up right, the time & effort taken to radically mod these towards enhanced performance might not be in everyone's interest. Which brings my post to another point, and that is Clarisys Audio. The guy backing these up is well known in the industry, Florian, and he works with their Swiss parent company and manufacture and build are based in Vietnam & Singapore. Graz, who is located down unda up in Queensland, does Apogee refurbs, and also makes the brand new Duetta Sigs. The parts he uses and the build quality is second to none! Sky's the limit really, and he corresponds with the customer, so depending on your budget, he will construct the panels as you wish... Then there's Alsyvox ribbons, that are very very pricey! They construct their panels with no compromises, use the highest quality parts and come fitted with all Neodymium's. They are absolutely superb! Now they have the Botichelli-X system and the Raffe'llo panels, which are even more expensive. So, if you really wanted to dish out the top of the line in Ribbon design, the Alsyvox is it!

Now, with this new Clarisys ribbon panels, they still use high quality parts and external cross-overs but they also offer the customer an option with or without Neodymium's. Even without these rare earth magnet's, they say they sound just as good. With Neodymium's they say they sound equal to Alsyvox, and they have an extra edge in performance, such that Clarisys incorporates double sided bass panels on every ribbon panel. So, this is something very different! The LF heft is much greater and there's probably no need for subs.

If you're seriously thinking of upgrading speakers and going for something truly tops, something that will really be on par with your SOTA CJ gear, I would highly recommend a listen to the Clarisys ribbons. I haven't heard them as yet but coming from Florian, I can tell that this is serious stuff. Florian has the Apogee Studio Grands and the Apogee 1's, modded in every way possible. After so many years, he decided to revamp this project with a solid backing from a Swiss based company who are very passionate about serious music reproduction.

Once my CLX's have reached their lifespan, the Clarisys will be my next gig. I can just feel it in my bones...
FWIW, I would consider these before making a decision on the 20.7's.

Just my 50cts worth, cheers,
RJ

[Cjaylundgren]

RJ, thanks for the informative post, I’ll definitely give your suggestions a try before making any purchasing decisions.
As far as my 3.7’s, I’m got them attached to Mye stands with ISO-acoustic feet and upgraded fuses (the stock feet and fuses are a joke at this price point). Just these two upgrades really improved the performance of the 3.7’s. I also agree there are a whole lot of improvements that can be had with the Maggies (all models) that would improve performance, but the accountants usually win out in manufacturing decisions if they are trying to get to a certain price point.
I’d happily pay a little more for a product if I didn’t need to nickel and dime myself with upgrades, just my 2cents.

[AnotherJohnson]

I’d happily pay a little more for a product if I didn’t need to nickel and dime myself with upgrades, just my 2cents.

Wilson is following a similar course. There are expensive foot upgrades (various “diode” options, mechanical and acoustic). And the standard binding posts (which won’t accept banana terminations) can be upgraded (for $800) as well.

I’m planning to move the binding post upgrade from the Sabrinas over to the Sasha DAWs when the latter arrive. I can’t move the mechanical diodes because the Sabrinas and Sasha DAWs are threaded differently.

It seems like a racket from one perspective. The alternative perspective is that some buyers won’t care about the upgrades so why build them into the price of the stock model.

In any event, the system Cjay has built is SOTA, and worthy of higher level speakers. I’m guessing that he likes the 3.7s as well as I like the Sabrinas, so patience on the speaker upgrade isn’t painful. Enjoy your new set up!

[admin]

No disrespect to Maggie's, they are true value for money and nothing comes close in that range. I've owned nearly every Maggie model (from the early MGIIIa to the MG20), except the 30.7's. I was seriously thinking about it but when my good Aussie mate ordered a pair and was the first ever pair to land Down Unda, we were both quite underwhelmed. Such that, it sounded like a typical Maggie. There was nothing special about it, it had better parts and materials but only slightly better. The T-Feet were heavier and allowed this massive double bass panel of the 30.7's to install with a firmer footing but it still swayed at the top, as was also the case with the mids & highs panel. The fuses are pretty much the same and that annoying speaker type connection bobs are still there! The magnets used are still the same, so it was just a huge double panel on bass and a separate panel for mids & highs. The ribbon tweeter is obviously much longer and presents a wider imaging factor, the bass goes much lower so there's no need for subs. We both summarized it as follows:
1. Frame construction and rigidness + supporting T-Feet.
2. The cross-overs
3. Fuses & speaker terminals
4. Magnet array used

Just my 50cts worth, cheers,
RJ

I think this is a excellent summary of the potential limitations of magnepan speakers in general. Right on the money.

Hence,
1) I have custom feet that are about 4 feet in depth and have a cross bar supporting the entire speaker about half way up. This eliminates all "wiggle movement." I can see why magnepan has not adopted significantly larger support structures. First, the added price of shipping an extra few hundred pounds. Second, I think it may be a significant turn off for a potential buyer. It precludes placing the speaker close to the front wall and make the footprint 5-10 as large compared to the standard feet.

2) Crossovers were upgraded with higher end caps and components.

3a) I actually removed the fuses. If you don't plan on blasting your maggies, this is a safe mod that is easy to do.

3b) The speaker terminals I have a love/hate relationship with. They look janky and cheap. However, the design is actually great for banana plugs. You push them into the slot and you tighten the side screw and they will grip those plugs like nothing else. You can tug on them all you want and they will not release. But they look like utter garbage, probably cost a dollar a piece, and limit you to banana plugs. No fancy gold/rhodium plating, really looks like a modified hex nut pulled from a shelf at Home Depot.

4) I don't know how I feel about the magnets? It's a huge long bar. Could they use better, probably. Would they sound better, maybe?

I guess the question becomes. Can you get significantly better performance for the price of a 3.7/20.7/30.7? I think the 3.7 and 20.7 are still bargains for the price. The 30.7's with their recent significant price bump I have to question. Not that they aren't great speakers, but whether they are pricing themselves out of the "bargain" category.

[AnotherJohnson]

3a) I actually removed the fuses. If you don't plan on blasting your maggies, this is a safe mod that is easy to do.

The only pair of speakers I ever destroyed were not fuse protected (as most seem not to be), and they literally fried due to an unplanned transient associated with the MF2550SE. I was having more ground issues in that room, and troubleshooting went south. The MF2550SE survived the event. The Thiel CS2.0s did not.

[Big Dog RJ]

Those are excellent upgrades on the MG20's Admin. I'm sure you're really enjoying those very fine tunes, especially with the ART amplifiers!

That one system comprising of the highly modded MG20.7's was something else! I guess sky's the limit in what you can upgrade including the framework and overall rigidity of the panels. The other advantage of the older series is that the crossovers are external! So every part in there can be custom made to sound tops! This is what was done on them and it sounds totally different, just extraordinary.

The thing that we were trying to figure out on the 30.7's is, there are no external crossover boxes... everything's built-in to the panel! So if you even attempt to mod, you'll have to take apart the panel. The other thing is, due to its sheer size, and these are really massive... the supporting T-feet are highly inadequate, the whole panel sways... not good at this level! This is top of the line! There shouldn't be any compromises unless it was some very exotic materials, like say Neodymium's then perhaps omitted.

The other thing my good mate commented was that the 30.7's were probably Magnepan's biggest mistake... compared to what the MG20 series offers, properly set up and given the best possible amplifiers, it surpassed every model!

Anyway, that was probably a learning curve for them, I really don't see the advantage of such a large design, which didn't impress much. The MG3.7i and MG20.7 system is still quite popular and I sincerely believe, depending on your room, installing either one of these is vfm at its highest level! Untouchable.

Cheers, RJ

[admin]

That one system comprising of the highly modded MG20.7's was something else! I guess sky's the limit in what you can upgrade including the framework and overall rigidity of the panels. The other advantage of the older series is that the crossovers are external! So every part in there can be custom made to sound tops! This is what was done on them and it sounds totally different, just extraordinary.

Again, completely agree. The panels sound best when they are rigid and I think the sheer height of the maggies make this very difficult and to keep the design practical. Here is an older picture of my setup but clearly shows the large size of the "speaker feet" (if you can even call them that).



They work incredibly well to stabilize the speaker but would make putting these speakers very impractical for many rooms (if the shear size of them doesn't do that already). I really think that magnepan has compromised on the stock feet for aesthetic/practical purposes. Certainly in the $40k price tag of the 30.7's there could have been production of a more robust and larger support structure.

I haven't had a close look at the crossovers of the 20.7 and 30.7 series so I'm not intimately familiar. Have the crossovers in an external box certainly makes work on them a lot easier. Magnepan usually has panels on the exterior usually fairly accessible by removing screws. But you do really have to lay the speaker down to do any significant work on them. This is a two person job minimum. Shipping is also tricky. Beyond their massive size, the speakers are fragile. The ribbon needs to be stabilized by a protective metal strip applied for shipping. And merely applying the metal strip can damage the ribbon if not done slowly. But the other panels are fragile as well. I had one bass panel damaged when they were shipped to me. Shipping a door sized item back to the factory for repair is neither fun nor cheap.

Still, these are 1st world problems. We didn't get into this hobby to make listening to music the easiest, but rather the best.

[Big Dog RJ]

Nice one Admin, that looks solid!

Those mods would certainly enhance your MG20's performance by a significant margin!
Cheers, have a good one now, RJ

[admin]

They certainly do help. But at the same time, I could completely see how something this would be a deal breaker for somebody buying speakers. The footprint of this setup is huge, one could argue that aesthetically it's not the best. Compared to something the similar planar Diptyque audio speakers we are currently discussing in another topic, admittedly these look rather crude.

Still, when it comes to bang for your buck, it's hard to beat.

[Cjaylundgren]

I’m going to take a look at the new PSAudio FR30/FR20 loudspeaker designs as the FR30 just got a fantastic review in the latest edition of The Absolute Sound.

[Big Dog RJ]

Mmm... that very speaker was on show at our last Melb hifi. The turn out was great but the show demos overall were quite disappointing. One of those disappointments were the PS Audio speakers, with a price tag close to 50grand AUD, it was no where close to any of the panel designs we own. In that case, you're far better off with the MG20.7's!
Heck, even the MG3.7i's are a far better option in every aspect!

The PS Audio speakers were placed in a much larger setting, taking the lime light of the show together with the B&W Nautilus Diamond series, 200grand a pair! Both of these were useless... sounded diffused, woolly in LF, hardly any transparency in mids & highs, other than a gutty punch in typical dynamic driver low bass, that's about it!

The three of us walked away, quite disappointed but not surprised knowing that we've heard many lofty systems before that fell short of anything transparent.

We don't believe in Reviews at all, we're way past that marketing gimmick. These are highly paid individuals who can make or break a good brand, and most of the real stuff is not even reviewed! The general consensus here, is usually JV of TAS, his best thing / item is only best until the next best thing arrives... After that, the previous best thing goes into the bin...!

My sincere advice:

After you've experienced what your Maggie's can do, and you've got a glimpse into the MG20.7's, assuming that you've auditioned the 20.7's... going from a highly transparent, uncoloured panel system with speed & agility to a dynamic driver type such as those PS Audio's... mmm not sure if this is heading in the right direction.

Like I said, after having acquired CJ's top of the, and if you were considering a better panel type speaker, that's where I would very highly recommend either Alsyvox or Clarisys, Apogee refurbs. There's also Diptyque and Audio Analysis, which I forgot. However, if finances don't allow it then of course Maggie's are the safest option, and probably the best option! Now, if you're looking at dynamic driver types, I would be looking at Wilson's, Magico's, Rock Port, Genesis, Focal, Zellaton... (which your good mate Jeff uses) and others within this top level.

At the end of the day, who am I to judge and tell you what to do with your money. After all, it's your decision but be mindful of reviews... they're very misleading. Something we learnt the hard way.

All the best in your quest for the better loudspeakers.
Cheers, RJ

[Cjaylundgren]

Thanks for the insights, RJ. I’m just bouncing around ideas at this point. My local dealer carries both Magnepan and Focal so I’m going to audition both the 20.7’s and the Sopra No.3 and take it from there.

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes! Nice one mate. Those comparisons will be at a much higher level than PS Audio speakers. Not that they're bad or anything, it's just something was off... can't quite explain it, and for 50grand price tag, hell no! Perhaps it was the amps (BHK monoblocks 300's) or the source gear, I don't know.

It's just that considering what you've achieved with CJ's top of the line, especially the ART 88, I would hope to see that gear partnered with some top performance speakers.

There are endless choices... so take your time, only your inner passion for music will decide which type of speakers you prefer; magnetic planar ribbons, electrostats, horns, dynamic drivers or hybrids. Once you've identified which category you like and enjoy the most then choosing the model is where the whole journey begins.

Try to make a short list of at least 5 different types then short list that into your top 3. Afterwards you'll be able to decide from 2 or 3 models depending on price, size, performance, value in terms of service quality and so on. I'm sure you'll find the best one that suits you most.

These are very exciting times, especially speakers... it can take years to decide but suddenly you'll come across something you've never heard before! You might just end up with that! Keep us posted mate.

Cheers, RJ

[Cjaylundgren]

Thanks for the thoughts RJ!

I've been a Maggie user since 1986 so I've kind of have a soft spot for the brand. On the other hand, the lack of deep and powerful bass has always been a deficiency with the Maggies. I've not had the opportunity to try and pair a subwoofer with the panels because of my current room size limitations.

Since I'm an old fart at this point and still listen to rock and roll from the 60's onward, I might be inclined to go back to a dynamic driver speaker to get the bass that I'm currently lacking. I need to start the audition process and see how it goes.