Roon Nucleus

[admin]

That's great! The nucleus is most certainly highly optimized so the CPU overhead is minimal compared to the Mac. I would imagine that the only thing that can get the power usage up is by running intensive DSPs.

[AnotherJohnson]

I would imagine that the only thing that can get the power usage up is by running intensive DSPs.

Or running six Zones on the one Nucleus. That would probably warm it up too.

My application is a simple one.

I’m wondering, and will find out by experiment, if getting rid of the WiFi Extender Bridge would give another boost to the SQ. I’m going to have a guy here in the not too distant future to do some work in the crawl space. I’m going to ask him to also run an uninterrupted Ethernet line from the router to the music system. The Ethernet wire isn’t expensive, and that would take the whole WiFi issue out of my equation.

I am 100% convinced that what matters in one installation might be inaudible in another, depending on the resolution possible with the system in use. I believe that WiFi is “as good” as Ethernet from a specs standpoint, but that specs don’t reveal the whole picture when it comes to high end audio.

[AnotherJohnson]

FWIW, I ran across this long after I’d solved most of my problems. The link should have been in the box.

https://help.roonlabs.com/portal/en/kb/ ... eus-manual

FWIW#2, as of this writing about 50 people have “found” this and rated it. I did not rate it, but of those who rated it, 25% gave it “thumbs down”. Much of what’s in the manual did not actually work because of the “glitch that they were working on when I started my install.

Roon seems like a great product that is offered by IT savvy people who have difficulty communicating with folks who are not in the IT club.

All’s well that ends well.

[AnotherJohnson]

It turns out that if you uninstall Roon from the MacBook Air, you can then reinstall it without making the MacBook Air the core. The core it controls can be the Nucleus.

Roon on the MacBook Air as a controller for the Nucleus has a few more features than the Roon Remote app on the iPad.

[AnotherJohnson]

I’ve just gone through another Nucleus update kabuki dance.

After at least 7 attempts to download updates without any updates actually commencing downloading, Roon has informed me that there was an error in identifying the update, and I have the latest version.

If the presentation of the music wasn’t so good, I would not put up with this.

FWIW, the current incarnation here has “discovered” the HEOS controlled devices, has decided they’re compatible, and has offered to control them.

It doesn’t know about the McIntosh MDA200 because it is not on the network. For Roon to discover it, I’d have to physically connect it to the Nucleus via a usb cable.

[admin]

At least it sounds like everything is working now. The controlling of other devices seems like an extra bonus.

[AnotherJohnson]

At least it sounds like everything is working now. The controlling of other devices seems like an extra bonus.

Yes, and many mysteries are being unraveled.

I can’t help but wonder why something so intuitively good at the end user interface is so lousy at the installer interface.

I know my local McIntosh dealer (who specializes in custom installations) had carried Roon at one time. But they dropped the line.

I know that the line was picked up by another local high end dealer, but that when I called them to buy the Nucleus, they did not return my calls.

I know that when I interacted with the dCS dealer and expressed interest in Roon since they were using it for demos in the store, they never actually offered any quotes on either Roon or the Nucleus.

It seems like Roon is for those with enough IT savvy to figure out how to get it for themselves. For some such users, it may be a trivial effort to get it working. For others, like me, it may “take a village” (CJville ).

[AnotherJohnson]

I note that dCS and Nucleus both refuse to include WiFi connectivity. You connect them to your network with a hard wired Ethernet connection.

Obviously including WiFi would be easy enough. And people can add WiFi with a WiFi network extender/bridge.

I know that by specs WiFi is more than adequate for transmission of even the highest resolution music files.

I also know that there are listeners who seem to be able to hear a difference between WiFi and Ethernet presentations… I am self identifying as one of them.

I don’t think it is coincidence or random that dCS and Nucleus are not including anything but hard connections. I think it is because both feel that WiFi is too variable for them to be certain that they’re putting their best foot forward.

[admin]

It is somewhat interesting that wifi is not offered as at least an option on these devices. Not sure what the motivation behind it is but perhaps wifi integration just adds a layer of complexity that they don't want to deal with. I wouldn't be surprised that most customer service requests are centered around network issues in general so if you cut the wifi part out, it saves you a lot of headache on the technical support side. I don't know, maybe?

As for music sounding better on ethernet, that is fine, but clearly there are streamers out there that package wifi into their units (and at much lower price points). There are going to be situations where running a cable is simply not practical. Perhaps it's a "no compromise" mindset?

[AnotherJohnson]

Perhaps it's a "no compromise" mindset?

BINGO!!!

At $35k retail, the idea of not including WiFi due to added complexity is a nonstarter.

I think the issue is the sound quality.

Joe Appierto has said his hard connection sounds better. My hard connection sounds better too.

Roon Nucleus and dCS Rossini are both unwilling to connect via WiFi. They say the best experience will be with Ethernet. Every high end dealer I’ve spoken to about this has said that the hard connection is ALWAYS best.

I think until you get to the last levels of high definition, it may not matter. But dCS is shooting for being the gear for that highest level where the distinction between great and best is clear.

[AnotherJohnson]

I was trying to find Roon’s country of origin and location of manufacturing last night. I ran across the following assertions (which I have not independently vetted).

1. Roon’s point of origin is NYC.

2. Roon does not have a formal bricks and mortar building or address.

3. All Roon employees “work from a site of their own preference,” like “home,” for example. They are distributed over several continents, and number about 50 according to the data I’ve seen.

4. Roon claims that they hire people who are passionate about music who also have innovative and accomplished backgrounds in IT.

5. Because they’re distributed world wide, “there is almost always someone in the office ready to help.” I would guess that the office they’re referring to is the on-line community. There certainly is NO ONE at an actual physical office ready to answer phone, fax, email, or doorbell.

6. I have not been able to ascertain where specifically the Nuclei are built. But it is claimed that they are built in the US. My guess is that they are batch building, and how much updating your particular sample will need, depends on the difference between the batch build date and your purchase date.

7. Does Roon sound better with the Core running as part of a Nucleus compared to the Core running on a non-dedicated computer? It is claimed that the answer is yes. FWIW, in my system this appears to be true.

Related thoughts:

The installation of the Core on my MacBook Air was E-Z as Pi.
Had I not bought the Nucleus and tried to install it in the presence of the MacBook Air, I would have had nothing but praise for Roon. It should be noted that the attempt to run the Nucleus in the presence of the deauthorized unlogged in Core on the MacBook killed both. I had to physically remove the Nucleus to get the MacBook Core to work again.

Once I physically removed the MacBook Air, the installation of the Nucleus went mostly smoothly, except for the need to update it right out of the box. The problems were created by the presence of two Cores and some related glitch “that Roon is aware of and working on.” If I had not had the MacBook Air present, the Nucleus installation would have gone smoothly enough that I would have praised Roon again.

But Roon’s lack of transparency regarding the two Core Conflict, exacerbated by the fact that I am at best a part time, undertrained, retired dabbler in IT, made the whole experience more difficult than it could have been.

Of course all’s well that ends well.

Going forward, I think the biggest variables will be how Qobuz behaves, how Comcast (my isp) behaves, and how Roon manages to shepherd them into the Rossini.

As for the Rossini, the upsampling concept may be a big part of its signature performance. In the Vivaldi, the upsampler is available in a standalone box if you spring for the Vivaldi Apex stack.

[AnotherJohnson]

More about Roon.

The return address on the Roon’s packing slip was

Roon Labs LLC
12510 Micro Drive
Mira Loma, CA 91752

This is the address of Ingram Electronics, a company that manufactures electronics for others in batches.

Still not 100% sure where the actual build takes place. Ingram looks like a small operation.

[AnotherJohnson]

Just found this, confirming the connection between Roon and Ingram Micro.

https://imaginenext.ingrammicro.com/int ... -solutions

[AnotherJohnson]

Mira Loma is about 35 miles north east of Irvine.

UC-Irvine has excellent facilities for micro and nano product development. And these facilities are available at very modest cost to companies and others who don’t have the wherewithal to build their own infrastructure for these activities.

Is there a connection between Ingram Micro and UC-Irvine faculty or alumni? It fits the Roon corporate model of a distributed workforce.

[admin]

At the price point they are offering, I wouldn't be surprised that the roon nucleus is manufactured in Asia. It would make sense. Very few companies can keep production in the West and yet maintain low price points. There are some, like Schiit, but not a lot.

[AnotherJohnson]

At the price point they are offering, I wouldn't be surprised that the roon nucleus is manufactured in Asia. It would make sense. Very few companies can keep production in the West and yet maintain low price points. There are some, like Schiit, but not a lot.

They do claim US manufacture. The Ingram Micro connection makes me think it’s possible.

I’ve had faculty friends at UC Irvine that have used the program there with specialized micro, nano, and MEMS US products. The $1500 price point for something of such limited purpose is not that cheap. Using the UC Irvine facility would dramatically cut their costs. It is subsidized to encourage startups and small time innovators and entrepreneurs.

I just dug it out of the stack to see how it was marked. It is labeled “Assembled in USA” on the underside. They may be outsourcing the IC work in Asia. The UC Irvine capability is probably not for large runs. More for proof of concept, prototyping, etc.

Assembled in USA is probably about as good as we can get until chip manufacturing returns to the USA.

FWIW, the thing is heavy and solid. They do not want customers to take it apart.

[admin]

I think another reason they can keep the price fairly reasonable is because the device is inherently tied to their subscription service. So other streamer manufacturers (like our Bluesound Node for example) get a one time payment when you buy the hardware and then further support is just an additional cost to them and not an income stream. The nucleus is inherently tied to a $15 a month subscription service (or another $820 one time purchase) or it simply stops working.

[AnotherJohnson]

Yes, it is potentially a lifelong revenue generator with no other useful purpose.

They come up for sale used every now and then. And they do seem to sell.

Last night I was using HEOS and Roon at different times. Roon is well worth the subscriptions cost in my opinion.

[AnotherJohnson]

One other thing that is a positive for the Nucleus is that the ONLY updates it will need are updates from Roon. The instruction set is specifically focused on the well defined Roon task. No other issues to be resolved in the box.

[AnotherJohnson]

The nucleus is inherently tied to a $15 a month subscription service (or another $820 one time purchase) or it simply stops working.

The annual rate is $150. The lifetime is $830.

I would consider the lifetime at $449 (three years of annual). But not at nearly six years of annual. That’s a long time horizon in the IT world.