Burmester 911 mk3 and CJ inverting Preamps

[AnotherJohnson]

Many of the CJ preamps invert the signal.
The CJ owner’s manuals recommend that you count the inverting components in the path. If the number is odd, then they recommend that you flip your + and - speaker wires at the speaker. I’ve not run across many components other than the CJ preamps that invert until now.

The Burmester amps invert.

So with a CJ preamp and a Burmester amp, the speaker wires should stay + on + and - on-

The Burmester 911 mk3 has a huge amount of gain. I think it’s 34 dB. That might be a problem.

The Burmester 088 preamp allows preamp individual input gain adjustment over an 18 dB range in order more perfectly match source levels.

[AnotherJohnson]

The Burmester amps are balanced designs, but they come with a pair of XLR to RCA adapters, so they could be run with a CJ preamp.

The gain issue may be the showstopper.

[admin]

Sounds like Burmester really prefers balanced connectors.

Correct me if I am wrong (as I don't use any balanced connectors in my system), but isn't the gain on balanced higher than standard RCA?

[AnotherJohnson]

As a rule, yes. About 6dB. Impedance is different too. ARC balanced gains are lower than Burmester’s.

It’s not just Burmester. When you get into the domain of true high end, RCA is the exception, not the rule.

[admin]

Yeah, no question that lots of high end gear have balanced. I was just wondering if it already has a high gain output, using a balanced to RCA connector will increase that gain even further.

[AnotherJohnson]

That I could not say. I would be leery of using the adapters.

[AnotherJohnson]

I’m not sure where Burmester has been all my life.

But the 911 amp was introduced a long time ago. And it has run through 3 generations to the 911 mk3 version that is now being retired.

Here is an older review.

https://www.audiophilia.com/reviews/201 ... -amplifier

Even after several hours of play, it is barely warm to the touch.

350 watts per channel into 4 ohms. 2750 damping factor.

This amp is presenting classical oratorios at a level I have never experienced before. Its ability to present spatial cues is better than anything I’ve experienced before.

The amp is better in my system than it was in the demos.

I’ve only heard the Burmester gear in demos at Paragon Sight and Sound. But I’ve heard several of their amps and preamps there over the last 8 months. I always thought their gear sounded great in the demos, but I was always happy to return to my ARC gear at home. The demos last week were different. The 218 and the 911 mk3 were great last week, and I was honestly afraid that I would be disappointed when I returned home on Saturday. But I was pleasantly surprised when the character of the demo with the REF6SE and Sasha DAWs was even bested when the 911 mk3 was inserted in my home system with those same preamp and speakers.

As old as the design and model run are, I don’t know how I missed it for so many years.

Suffice it to say that if this amp proves to be reliable, it will be my end game amp.

[AnotherJohnson]

Some possible reasons it is better in my own system include:

My speakers are dialed in for my listening seat and room.

I am running my system on the PS Audio P20 Regenerator.

My speakers and REF6SE are fully broken in.

My interconnects are shorter and I like their neutrality.

It isn’t that the demo was bad. If it had been, I would not have bought the amp. The issue is that the performance in my system is exceeding my very high expectations based on the demo.

[admin]

At the end of the day this is a top of the line amp by any measure. It's not surprising that it even sounds better in your system than the demo as your system is more finely tuned to your listening environment than any demo setup would be. Your system also inherently already has gear that your ears prefer.

Sounds like you have a winner here.

I only see one downside to this amp. It's the name. If I was a manufacturer, "911" is not what I would put on anything I would be trying to sell. Not sure when the MK1 of the unit was released but I presume it was before 2001. I might have switched to 912 instead of MK2 and 913 instead of MK3.

[AnotherJohnson]

Could be a legitimate point with some. The model number predates the negative connotations of the date. In our circle we still say September 11 rather than 911. Could be a generational thing.

I identified it with the Porsche model (which hasn’t been hindered by the number either) rather than with the Islamic terrorists.

It is an interesting point though. McIntosh and now perhaps Burmester both ignore superstition and foreign culture in their model designations while companies like ARC, Wilson, and CJ avoid 4s, and CJ goes so far as to embrace 8s.

Not quite right I guess. The Burmester 088 preamp is another long lived model. So maybe they’ve embraced the 8s.

I dunno … who knows what trickery lives in the hearts of marketers? The Shadow is long gone.

FWIW, the William Tell Zeros sound good, but they’re definitely not as smooth or as widely balanced as the Thunderbird Zeros. Can’t wait to get them back from AQ.

[admin]

Agree with your points. I'm not superstitious so when the "13 the floor" is missing on the elevator buttons it still surprises me. A model number would not influence my buying decision in any way, but I can see companies not wanting to alienate any potential customers, even if superstition plays a role in a minority of them.

Getting more back on topic. Hopefully the cables are going to come in soon. AQ is usually pretty quick from what I've heard.

[AnotherJohnson]

It turns out that Burmester prefers the Mk? addition to new model numbers. The original 911 was introduced in 1991.

1991 is literally 32 years ago. I can’t figure out when it made it to the US market, but there were magazines reviewing the Mk3 version as though it was something new to them from around 2010 to around 2020. Maybe there were few imported before 2010.

That introduction year is the same era as my Krells were from. Like I asked in another thread, where have these been all my life?

RJ might be able to tell us about the Burmester proprietary Class A-X operation. There’s not much detail available. The other really strange thing is that they sound like Class A, they put up to 350 watts per channel into 4 ohms, they claim this Class A proprietary status …. Yet the heat sinks are so effective the surface temperature is as though they’re not even on. No cooling fans needed. The AC doesn’t need to run to keep them cool.

I’m wondering if they invented a variant on the multi-rail power supply. Like a pseudo infinite Class G design.

Going way back (32 years is a lot of history and a lot of great amps have come and gone during that period), they have been noted as the solid state amp that tube amp lovers prefer. They are killing my theory that 32 year old designs have been long surpassed. Of course there have been advances to mk2 and mk3 versions, but by typical audio standards there would have been at least 6 model changes, not just two.

The 350 Wpc 911 mk3 is being superseded by the 100 Wpc 216 at the same $35k price point. Reviews suggest that it offers improvements over the 911 mk3. But I auditioned the 218, on which the 216 is based, but the 216 is lower power iirc. I liked the 218 a lot, but I thought the 911 mk3 had the same character that I was drawn to.

[AnotherJohnson]

The only other Burmester I have ever heard of is Ludwig Burmester. Burmester Theory in Kinematic Synthesis of Mechanisms allowed the mathematical design of linkages that would pass a coupling link through a finite number of distinct planes. It was important in the middle of the 20th Century. Ludwig was a product of the 19th Century but his work was rediscovered in the post WWII boom to rebuild wedtern civilian economies.

[AnotherJohnson]

It’s Saturday. I’ve had this Burmester 911 mk3 in the system for a full week and I can barely catch my breath. What an unusual amp!

It only weighs 70 pounds. It’s got handles. It looks like a piece of art. One of Burmester’s slogans is “Art for the ears”.

It draws less than 350 Watts from the P20 at idle and on average. It sounds incredible from low volumes to ear splitting volumes (at least on the DAWs).

After three hours neither the P20 nor the 911 mk3 are more than barely warm to the touch.

Hand made solid state. The best amp I’ve owned so far, by far. Cheaper at new retail than my pair of ARC Ref 250SEs.

The best brand I’ve ever heard in good demos (like the $350k pair of 159s on the XVX Chronosonics).

TAS gave the 159s a lot of love in the December 2022 issue, and named it solid state amp of the year for 2022 in an early issue in 2023. I do not make it a habit to read about $350k amps, but I went back to read the 159 review yesterday. I agree with every word even though the 911 mk3 is only 10% at retail of the 159. Just like with Wilson, the DNA is present through their whole line.

The amount of detail in recordings has leapt forward again. I continue to be stunned by the ability of system upgrades to stun me.

There are second hand deals on 911 mk3s as Burmester retires the model. I can unequivocally recommend it. It is the best amp I’ve owned and, in my opinion, the highest Performance to Price ratio I am personally aware of.

[admin]

The 911 is balanced input only. Do you think that this would still be a good option for somebody that only has RCA outs on their preamp? I'm typically not a fan of RCA/balanced (or vice versa) adapter plugs.

[Big Dog RJ]

Now that sounds like a winner AJ mate!

It's definitely a funny thing no doubt, when you really don't have to spend a bloody fortune to get top quality sound. Price is definitely not equal to performance and there are so many lofty ones out there that I've auditioned that don't get it right. However, most of the branding image and bling is what sells the item... only to be disappointed when they actually hear it. Or I shouldn't say disappointed, rather surprised when they hear something far better for much less! That's the most ironic thing.

The last ultra-high-end demo in Melb, where I auditioned a very highend system hovering around the mark of 700grand! From the first note onwards, I said out loud, "where's the bar?" And that's all she wrote.
There was something a miss in that particular rig, not sure if it was the phonostage, cartridge, cables or room... something was off. That very same group have visited and always wondered where the glorious tunes are coming from within a fraction of that 700grand. Oh well, it's just luck I say .

I've not kept up with the Burmester line for a while, simply because over here it's quite pricey. The dealer stopped carrying the brand and I think they've changed importers, don't know. However, my first encounter with Burmester quite a while back was stunning! It was a combination with one of their preamps and a big Krell power amp, driving Bob Carver's Amazing ribbon panels. It was fantastic!

Over the years I'd bump into them from time to time, one of the Spore dealers would have a combination or two and usually partnered it with Vitus. That was really tops! Another fine SS match up.

I'm sure the S-Daws are enjoying that refined power and finesse at its finest. Just sit back and chill
Perhaps the matching Burmester preamp will have greater synergy... don't know but no harm in trying.

Woof! RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

Burmester include their adapters. Personally I have been leery of adapters. I have not heard these specific ones.

After the horrible crescendo of my love affair with unbalanced CJ gear, I will never buy another unbalanced unit again. But I do have some unbalanced gear on hand from Marantz that floats ground that I will continue to try to accommodate with my preamps.

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes Admin, adapters are not the best but passable for demos... if that makes sense. If you are considering XLR connections then you must make full use of the Balanced config. Although towards the end signal, which are the speakers being not balanced, having all the gear in full balanced mode does help and keeps things in top flight.

XLR cables are also great for longer runs, such that no loss along the way plus the grounding systems are tops. It all depends what you're after. Where your gear is located, your room set-up and if you've experienced grounding issues in the connections. So quite a number of factors to consider.

I've tried the XLR adapters a few times when the ARC rep did home trials on the Ref160M's but it didn't fly. Later on he brought in one of the ARC preamps, and since my Esoteric digital player has XLR, it was much easier to assess. It was a nice one overall, there was very good presentation and quality. However, with what I had done to my room when we built the house in 2019, the grounding is perfect and dead silent, no hums, no buzzes nothing! In fact he was quite amazed at the level of quietness, so we both agreed upgrades in that part of the rig were not required. Cable lengths are very short 1 - 2 meters the most, even shorter. This is as far as it has reached its threshold. Perhaps putting together another system with XLR may make sense.

See how you go and determine which type of config connectivity works for you then approach it from there. If you don't have any issues at all then just leave it, and enjoy those fine tunes!

Cheers, RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

Yes Admin, adapters are not the best but passable for demos... if that makes sense. If you are considering XLR connections then you must make full use of the Balanced config. Although towards the end signal, which are the speakers being not balanced, having all the gear in full balanced mode does help and keeps things in top flight.

This red herring about speakers being unbalanced gets trotted out pretty frequently, but it fails to recognize that most speakers are passive elements whose ground floats.

Same at the cartridge end … passive element with floating ground.

If the design is balanced from the first active box, and continues balanced through every active box, balanced is best. There are NO serious professional level audio boxes that run unbalanced in 2023. No studio would put up with it.

[AnotherJohnson]

XLR cables are also great for longer runs, such that no loss along the way plus the grounding systems are tops. It all depends what you're after. Where your gear is located, your room set-up and if you've experienced grounding issues in the connections. So quite a number of factors to consider.

One of the really nice things about Transparent at the reference level and above is that the network box is custom tuned for your gear, and for the cable length. So if you buy a balanced Transparent Reference cable in 1 meter or in 10 meters, it sounds the same.

And once you’ve bought in at the 1 m level, the incremental cost to go to 10 m is small.