As I always keep saying: let your ears decide...and still, no matter what, the sound of the tubes are the final winner for my ears.
Yes, there are some SS well crafted and I do like their sound, I must get accustomed to the way that they sing. The bass usually is much better on SS, I admit this. But the new transformers used on CJ power amps are fantastic driving the bass too. The thing is that SS does not need the output transformers for matching the high impedance of the output tubes. Usually the tubes impedance is around 4000 ohms or higher, and the transformer is needed, being the speakers impedance so low. Here the transformer is a must. There are some tube amps that are OTL (output transformer less).
At the end, your judges (your ears) decided what's the best for you. In my case, you know the answer: I love CJ sound. The transparency, the clarity, the space between the musician(s) the harmonic texture, the coherence, the size of the musical instruments and voices, the ambiance, the virtual stage that my ears get, the naturalness exhibit easily with tubes for all musical instruments and voices...and this is my liking. And my liking not necessary must be your liking.
Happy listening!
Oh! For the love of tubes!
Re: Oh! For the love of tubes!
ML CLX BF-210 Stage X Motion 4. CJ 120SE amp ET7V2 pre, Holo May Kte Dac. Mac Pro. Power Cond. BPT Signature+ 3.5, Gaia II Feet. USB Lush^V3. Nordost SPM IC and Spk. Shun Mook, BCanto CD2 CD3. Linn LP-12/Unitrack tonearm/Denon DL103R MC.
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Big Dog RJ
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Re: Oh! For the love of tubes!
This looks promising. Certainly something worth looking into and Canada is the same place my Martin Logan's come from! I'll check them out. Thanks for the info S-S.SolderSlinger wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 8:19 pm I buy tubes from a Canadian company, Parts Connexion. Good prices, especially during a sale, and the matched tubes are closely matched.
https://partsconnexion.com/
They had stock of KT120 up until today. KT150 are in stock. Power tube prices are for a matched pair.
Cheers, RJ
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Big Dog RJ
- Ultimate
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- Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Oh! For the love of tubes!
Robbo maaate! Agree 110%roberto wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 5:21 am As I always keep saying: let your ears decide...and still, no matter what, the sound of the tubes are the final winner for my ears.
Yes, there are some SS well crafted and I do like their sound, I must get accustomed to the way that they sing. The bass usually is much better on SS, I admit this. But the new transformers used on CJ power amps are fantastic driving the bass too. The thing is that SS does not need the output transformers for matching the high impedance of the output tubes. Usually the tubes impedance is around 4000 ohms or higher, and the transformer is needed, being the speakers impedance so low. Here the transformer is a must. There are some tube amps that are OTL (output transformer less).
At the end, your judges (your ears) decided what's the best for you. In my case, you know the answer: I love CJ sound. The transparency, the clarity, the space between the musician(s) the harmonic texture, the coherence, the size of the musical instruments and voices, the ambiance, the virtual stage that my ears get, the naturalness exhibit easily with tubes for all musical instruments and voices...and this is my liking. And my liking not necessary must be your liking.
Happy listening!
Why 110%...? 100% agreed and 10% bias adjustment, ha!
Woof! RJ
Re: Oh! For the love of tubes!
RJ, Roberto, et al-
I'm not saying that tubes don't sound good... in fact, a tube push pull design will outdo the vast majority of SS designs (0), even stuff being sold into the Ultra High End to people who have lots more money than brains. But, there are SS designs that are not mainstream that will outdo tube designs at much lower cost... operating word is "not mainstream products".
To wit: None of the "SS gear" you have listened to in your list are SIT units... they are mostly class AB units. Fine units, indeed, but class AB.
The Pass Labs are MOSFET Class A which is indeed a giant step forward. and then you got the Pass Labs XA25 which is simply the most advanced, best designed and yet cheapest of the entire line. Likely the best sounding too... it uses the new power MOSFET modules!
BUT, the SIT amps are an entire different proposition within the SS world, indeed the entire audio World. Think of the difference between a pentode and a triode. Triodes simply beat the pants off pentodes... period, there really is no competition. So, you need to go and get ultra efficient speakers to run those single ended triode amps... that may give you 18 wpc under heroic, and very expensive, circumstances.
Enter the SIT transistors. They can double and triple the power of a tube triode, you can go from a First Watt commercial SIT1, SIT2 at 10wpc, the SIT3 at 35 and now the SIT4 at similar power output. But the SIT1, SIT2 (at $10K) or the SIT3 (at $4K) no longer are being made. The SIT4 is new (at $4K but it will very, VERY limited).
NOTE: Nobody else is making them.
Heck, SIT transistors are no longer being made either... right now I'm trying to find a matched set of Tokin THF51S for my next project amp...
Imagine, when you want an amp and don't want to design one (because you are not as good as the other guys around)... first you set on the design, then search the Internet for the power transistors, then you find the circuit boards and the Bill of Materials, then you buy the case and last you build it or find someone who will build it for you.
We are talking about a very hard core world. (1)
Then you got the real weird stuff that uses no gain amplifiers, just pure current amps (2) ... like the First Watt F4. it relies on the preamp to provide enough voltage gain to drive the speakers, In this area, the Conrad Johnson preamps, at 20Vpp output are awesome... because a CJ PV9 or ET3SE will drive an F4 to 35wpc... and in this case you hear the sound of the preamp, the amps is absolutely transparent! You will never know how good a CJ tube preamp sounds until you remove the amp from the equation.. this means no gain, no feedback, no degeneration... just pure current!
But they don't make the F4 anymore... but you can build one -or search for one that got built and is on sale (3). I always keep looking and I found a used one, in a very good build and in almost brand new condition for $900! This last January. The commercial unit sold for $4K, but it was also in a very limited production run.
Enter the DIYAudio community... they figured out how to "find" a few more sources of other types of SITs and there are clone versions of the SIT3 and SIT4. Upgraded, btw, as this is an active design community... cost in parts is around $2K if you know how to build or find someone who will build it for you, you can get them for way under $2500,
At 35wpc, these amps give you full, lush, 2nd harmonic triode sound but they can handle speakers with a 90db/watt efficiency... which is far more mainstream. They will drive Magnepans at lower levels (trust me it's an eye opener how GREAT that combination sounds).
So, if you are into mainstream electronics, and this includes 98% of all of that Very High End stuff with very fancy casework... you know.. $100K... you are still not getting the best sound... In that World of Audio, where you do not read schematics and just go and buy your stuff from a company that makes it... yes, I admit that tubes and Pass Labs rule. Or you can go find an older STASIS amp. Also class A. The Nak PA7 MkI is as cheap as they come.. and they sound fantastic.
If you want to run 83db/watt speakers, you need 200wpc.... like I run my clone Aleph 2 monoblocks into my Maggies 1.7s.
But, once you get into true esoterica, both DIY clones or very rare, low production used components.. meaning way out of the way designs.. cost no longer applies. It's a different market.
And, IMHO, this is where the BEST sound lies.
You can not just buy your way into the best sound. if you know what you;re doing, are patient and willing to spend lots of time in the hobby, appreciating circuit designs... well, you can put together a full system for under $10K that will blow away the $1M system that I heard two months ago in one of my local audio salons....
That is my experience in this hobby.
So you can not make blanket statements about tubes vs. solid state. There is a lot more stuff in play.
(0) Heck, I'm keeping an Audio Research D70-Ii that I had recently rebuilt and loaded with a set of Russkie Svetlanas... that amp, with its complete lack of solid state amplification, to the point of using a 6550 to drive the plate voltage of the output 6550s is simply sublime even today. I used to have two, of very close serial numbers. The biggest mistake in my audiophile hobby was selling one of them...
(1) In such a world where the actual cost to the user is measured more in time than in money, the final cost is much lower than in the commerical world where you pay for manufacturing, distribution, sales and all kinds of added costs to the chain, usually adding 90% to the basic cost. Think of Open Source Software where the designers get "paid" by name recognition within the global community!
(2) One of the big problems in commerical audio systems is the excess of system wide gain. When the amps have gains of 20db and preamps of 10db you end up with crazy amount of gain. So we tend to run the volume knob in the preamp primarily as a 'cut". Running the volume knob at 9 o'clock... which means the preamps are running not at wide open throttle but at low levels where noise is very big and then we amplify that noise! It's crazy. Much better is if your amp has no gain, then your preamp can be run at 3 o'clock, and noise disappears from the chain. It's an eye opener when you move to low gain, or no gain, amps...
(3) Indeed, the used market is the only place to find such jewels... although lately it has been obfuscated by flippers who double the price and/or try to sell 1974 Superscope receivers for $700 bucks.... noise, noise... I do hate those people. It makes the searches harder and longer.
I'm not saying that tubes don't sound good... in fact, a tube push pull design will outdo the vast majority of SS designs (0), even stuff being sold into the Ultra High End to people who have lots more money than brains. But, there are SS designs that are not mainstream that will outdo tube designs at much lower cost... operating word is "not mainstream products".
To wit: None of the "SS gear" you have listened to in your list are SIT units... they are mostly class AB units. Fine units, indeed, but class AB.
The Pass Labs are MOSFET Class A which is indeed a giant step forward. and then you got the Pass Labs XA25 which is simply the most advanced, best designed and yet cheapest of the entire line. Likely the best sounding too... it uses the new power MOSFET modules!
BUT, the SIT amps are an entire different proposition within the SS world, indeed the entire audio World. Think of the difference between a pentode and a triode. Triodes simply beat the pants off pentodes... period, there really is no competition. So, you need to go and get ultra efficient speakers to run those single ended triode amps... that may give you 18 wpc under heroic, and very expensive, circumstances.
Enter the SIT transistors. They can double and triple the power of a tube triode, you can go from a First Watt commercial SIT1, SIT2 at 10wpc, the SIT3 at 35 and now the SIT4 at similar power output. But the SIT1, SIT2 (at $10K) or the SIT3 (at $4K) no longer are being made. The SIT4 is new (at $4K but it will very, VERY limited).
NOTE: Nobody else is making them.
Heck, SIT transistors are no longer being made either... right now I'm trying to find a matched set of Tokin THF51S for my next project amp...
Imagine, when you want an amp and don't want to design one (because you are not as good as the other guys around)... first you set on the design, then search the Internet for the power transistors, then you find the circuit boards and the Bill of Materials, then you buy the case and last you build it or find someone who will build it for you.
We are talking about a very hard core world. (1)
Then you got the real weird stuff that uses no gain amplifiers, just pure current amps (2) ... like the First Watt F4. it relies on the preamp to provide enough voltage gain to drive the speakers, In this area, the Conrad Johnson preamps, at 20Vpp output are awesome... because a CJ PV9 or ET3SE will drive an F4 to 35wpc... and in this case you hear the sound of the preamp, the amps is absolutely transparent! You will never know how good a CJ tube preamp sounds until you remove the amp from the equation.. this means no gain, no feedback, no degeneration... just pure current!
But they don't make the F4 anymore... but you can build one -or search for one that got built and is on sale (3). I always keep looking and I found a used one, in a very good build and in almost brand new condition for $900! This last January. The commercial unit sold for $4K, but it was also in a very limited production run.
Enter the DIYAudio community... they figured out how to "find" a few more sources of other types of SITs and there are clone versions of the SIT3 and SIT4. Upgraded, btw, as this is an active design community... cost in parts is around $2K if you know how to build or find someone who will build it for you, you can get them for way under $2500,
At 35wpc, these amps give you full, lush, 2nd harmonic triode sound but they can handle speakers with a 90db/watt efficiency... which is far more mainstream. They will drive Magnepans at lower levels (trust me it's an eye opener how GREAT that combination sounds).
So, if you are into mainstream electronics, and this includes 98% of all of that Very High End stuff with very fancy casework... you know.. $100K... you are still not getting the best sound... In that World of Audio, where you do not read schematics and just go and buy your stuff from a company that makes it... yes, I admit that tubes and Pass Labs rule. Or you can go find an older STASIS amp. Also class A. The Nak PA7 MkI is as cheap as they come.. and they sound fantastic.
If you want to run 83db/watt speakers, you need 200wpc.... like I run my clone Aleph 2 monoblocks into my Maggies 1.7s.
But, once you get into true esoterica, both DIY clones or very rare, low production used components.. meaning way out of the way designs.. cost no longer applies. It's a different market.
And, IMHO, this is where the BEST sound lies.
You can not just buy your way into the best sound. if you know what you;re doing, are patient and willing to spend lots of time in the hobby, appreciating circuit designs... well, you can put together a full system for under $10K that will blow away the $1M system that I heard two months ago in one of my local audio salons....
That is my experience in this hobby.
So you can not make blanket statements about tubes vs. solid state. There is a lot more stuff in play.
(0) Heck, I'm keeping an Audio Research D70-Ii that I had recently rebuilt and loaded with a set of Russkie Svetlanas... that amp, with its complete lack of solid state amplification, to the point of using a 6550 to drive the plate voltage of the output 6550s is simply sublime even today. I used to have two, of very close serial numbers. The biggest mistake in my audiophile hobby was selling one of them...
(1) In such a world where the actual cost to the user is measured more in time than in money, the final cost is much lower than in the commerical world where you pay for manufacturing, distribution, sales and all kinds of added costs to the chain, usually adding 90% to the basic cost. Think of Open Source Software where the designers get "paid" by name recognition within the global community!
(2) One of the big problems in commerical audio systems is the excess of system wide gain. When the amps have gains of 20db and preamps of 10db you end up with crazy amount of gain. So we tend to run the volume knob in the preamp primarily as a 'cut". Running the volume knob at 9 o'clock... which means the preamps are running not at wide open throttle but at low levels where noise is very big and then we amplify that noise! It's crazy. Much better is if your amp has no gain, then your preamp can be run at 3 o'clock, and noise disappears from the chain. It's an eye opener when you move to low gain, or no gain, amps...
(3) Indeed, the used market is the only place to find such jewels... although lately it has been obfuscated by flippers who double the price and/or try to sell 1974 Superscope receivers for $700 bucks.... noise, noise... I do hate those people. It makes the searches harder and longer.
-
Big Dog RJ
- Ultimate
- Posts: 2361
- Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:30 am
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Oh! For the love of tubes!
Interesting write up Tonye. In fact, I had to take annual leave to read through it... 
Now I'm taking annual leave to respond...
Glad to hear that you're enjoying those SIT designs, that's the main thing, as long as you're happy. Yes, I understand your perspective and thoughts on different amplifier designs. There's always a better way or should I say "sensible" way of achieving very good sound, without having to spend a fortune... I already know that!
The DIY designs are definitely a way towards better sound. That's their main focus and reason behind DIY. Various DIY and mods have been developed to achieve better results. For example, Maggie owners have modded their Maggie's that out-perform every standard Maggie model out there! Similarly, Apogee's, Audio Analysis and Quads have been redesigned to sound marvelous!
So there's no doubt in further improvements, I'm not denying that.
Referring to gear costing 100grand... NO, that's not what I'm after. In fact, I've mentioned this before, and I will reiterate: having been in this industry for a few decades, having owned and sold various systems to discerning customers during my dealership years and having put together personal systems to create a custom sound, is my final step. So now I've drawn the line!
Just like your DIY community, I trust my main CJ techie. He's not only serviced, repaired and restored various gear but also re-engineered gear to sound fabulous! When I got my amplifiers back, he told me that he's done the best possible with that design. After having them since early last year Feb, now I understand his true passion in Class A tube circuits. That's why I'm done with tube amps!
Even if I had the means, going for the latest and greatest top of the line tube gear, and spending over 100grand... is not something I'm going to engage in. Hell no!
There are those people who have the means in this kind of spend and hats off to them! They enjoy top quality at its highest level and they've done it in their own way. Therefore, I respect that and it's their decision.
Note: *** I'll never ridicule their set-ups or down grade it in any way, simply because I'm not the owner ***
It's what they've put together and find enjoyment in, so I'm happy for them. There's also quite a lot to learn from these types of systems that has helped me to mod most of my gear over the years, so I'll never ridicule them. The only time I've come across certain lofty systems that didn't sound too great was mainly because they weren't set-up well. They can certainly perform well but it wasn't optimal. Quite similar to your experience with systems costing 10grand vs the one that was a million bucks!
BTW, which system did you hear that was a million bucks?
What type of gear was it? and can you please describe the room, speakers, cables and accessories, I'd like to know.
Speaking of a million dollar systems, yes I've certainly auditioned gear well within this range and it performs on phenomenal levels! I can very easily name all those systems and I think I've already listed them numerous times in most of my posts. Like I said, I'm definitely NOT going to engage in this kind of spend but I can learn a hell of a lot from such designs, where these audio engineers are truly passionate in what they do. Aries Cerat and Kondo Audio Note are two makes that have been awe-inspiring for me. If anyone gets a chance to audition this type gear, you'll know straight away what I'm referring to. This is pure Class A design at its finest!
Once the time comes for that change, I will end up with Pass Labs XA series. We all have preferences and enjoy our music on varied gear. Not any ONE system on this forum is the same. Not even the room nor the cables or accessories but we all enjoy our music, that's all that matters!
Do enjoy those fine tunes!
Cheers, RJ
Now I'm taking annual leave to respond...
Glad to hear that you're enjoying those SIT designs, that's the main thing, as long as you're happy. Yes, I understand your perspective and thoughts on different amplifier designs. There's always a better way or should I say "sensible" way of achieving very good sound, without having to spend a fortune... I already know that!
The DIY designs are definitely a way towards better sound. That's their main focus and reason behind DIY. Various DIY and mods have been developed to achieve better results. For example, Maggie owners have modded their Maggie's that out-perform every standard Maggie model out there! Similarly, Apogee's, Audio Analysis and Quads have been redesigned to sound marvelous!
So there's no doubt in further improvements, I'm not denying that.
Referring to gear costing 100grand... NO, that's not what I'm after. In fact, I've mentioned this before, and I will reiterate: having been in this industry for a few decades, having owned and sold various systems to discerning customers during my dealership years and having put together personal systems to create a custom sound, is my final step. So now I've drawn the line!
Just like your DIY community, I trust my main CJ techie. He's not only serviced, repaired and restored various gear but also re-engineered gear to sound fabulous! When I got my amplifiers back, he told me that he's done the best possible with that design. After having them since early last year Feb, now I understand his true passion in Class A tube circuits. That's why I'm done with tube amps!
Even if I had the means, going for the latest and greatest top of the line tube gear, and spending over 100grand... is not something I'm going to engage in. Hell no!
There are those people who have the means in this kind of spend and hats off to them! They enjoy top quality at its highest level and they've done it in their own way. Therefore, I respect that and it's their decision.
Note: *** I'll never ridicule their set-ups or down grade it in any way, simply because I'm not the owner ***
It's what they've put together and find enjoyment in, so I'm happy for them. There's also quite a lot to learn from these types of systems that has helped me to mod most of my gear over the years, so I'll never ridicule them. The only time I've come across certain lofty systems that didn't sound too great was mainly because they weren't set-up well. They can certainly perform well but it wasn't optimal. Quite similar to your experience with systems costing 10grand vs the one that was a million bucks!
BTW, which system did you hear that was a million bucks?
What type of gear was it? and can you please describe the room, speakers, cables and accessories, I'd like to know.
Speaking of a million dollar systems, yes I've certainly auditioned gear well within this range and it performs on phenomenal levels! I can very easily name all those systems and I think I've already listed them numerous times in most of my posts. Like I said, I'm definitely NOT going to engage in this kind of spend but I can learn a hell of a lot from such designs, where these audio engineers are truly passionate in what they do. Aries Cerat and Kondo Audio Note are two makes that have been awe-inspiring for me. If anyone gets a chance to audition this type gear, you'll know straight away what I'm referring to. This is pure Class A design at its finest!
Once the time comes for that change, I will end up with Pass Labs XA series. We all have preferences and enjoy our music on varied gear. Not any ONE system on this forum is the same. Not even the room nor the cables or accessories but we all enjoy our music, that's all that matters!
Do enjoy those fine tunes!
Cheers, RJ
Re: Oh! For the love of tubes!
There's nothing wrong with long posts... so long as they are not long rants. I like to think about things... and one of the issues that I have with the "instant gratification" crowd is how they limit their reactions ( I won't call it thoughts ) to 256 character text messages. I truly enjoy long posts that are well written, cogent, funny and intelligent. I think of them as reading stuff like Auntie Enid in the TAS back in the 80s.
Anyhow.. the store is Excel Audio in Newport Beach, CA.
He had the top of the line WIlson speakers set up with top of the line d'Agostino amps and preamp... and a very expensive media server and some crazy, 50lb DAC... cables were bigger than the hoses in my yard. Check out his web site. I only go there to listen, look at his used stuff, shoot the breeze and buy LPs.
One of these days I might buy a used Harbeth M30.1.... not the M30.2. He knows I'm looking for one. Or maybe... maybe... how about a nice used Audio Note AN-J/LX? Go for sound over accuracy? He doesn't carry Audio Note.
His listening room is quite good sounding, btw. It's always a good place to visit and I've met some interesting audiophiles. Turns out the ARC D70-Ii is still very well liked.
Anyhow, that day, at the store, Mike -the owner- was playing some "serious" Russian classical music (*). The recording sounded to me like I was floating above the orchestra, ( where the mikes most likely were ) and hearing specific instruments, quite clearly. BUT, the sound didn't jell... it didn't sound like an orchestra as we hear it from the middle of row M.
Perhaps, the High End has progressed beyond the goal of reproducing the experience of the recording into reproducing the detail of the recording. This might work fine if they were recording in 7 channels, but in 2ch stereo, we expect some interchannel interaction that reacts with the room to present some reasonable facsimile of the performance, not just the details of the instruments and voices.
It seems like the Mainstream High End has moved to a place that is antagonistic to the recording techniques. I don't want to hear the recording, I want to hear a reasonable facsimile of the performance. If it takes some distortions to do this in 2ch, then so be it.
This is why I laugh at the crowd in ASR... they are stuck in their Julian Hirsch mode... taking measurements all day long, never listening.
And then you got the Uber High Fi guys who will do listening to their designs, but they tend to go for... detail, uber-detail...
In my own opinion, I like designers like Nelson Pass who after listening, they tweak their designs to sound... good. Indeed, two of my amps have a switch (one preamp has a couple of internal pots) to select the bias from 2nd order or 3rd order THD. It makes a big difference... I prefer the warmer 2nd order mode, but 3rd order mode has more detail (and less overall THD..).
BTW, interestingly, the DIYAudio designs I really like are based on Nelson Pass designs. Indeed, this weekend I'm going up to Burning Amp '23, in Cupertino, gonna build my own 5 watt amps... Nelson will be there... also Andrew Jones, the speaker guy ( I picked up a pair of Elac Unifi 2 UB52 for a song, just a few months ago. A very fun speaker that punches way ahead of its price point. I got it for $500, new, at Amazon. I don't know what they run for in Oz, but I highly recommend them in your "toy/play" system.
https://burningampfestival.com/burning- ... ival-2023/
PS- Yes, those CJ amps are nice... I keep looking for an MV55... although those KT150s look good...it's just, as you noted, the price/performance has moved to far up and that opens the door for those very nice Pass Labs Class A amps.... Heck, if it weren't for the Maggies/Aleph 2, I would be down in the 35 watt world with the Audio Notes AN K/LX ( my alternate amp/speaker choice in the Big Rig ).
Anyhow... have fun!
(*) As you can imagine, places like Newport Beach attract the money over brains crowd. People who have lots of money and little time so they are willing to spend their way out of issues. Unlike Yours Truly..
Anyhow, this particular day he had a visitor for the Big Country in the Far East... the guy showed us pictures of his "audio room" back at home.. It looked like a huge Home Theater, only that it was strictly two channel. The guy was obviously into status... but his chauffeur was really cool. Turns out he has a pair of Maggie 1.7s and HiFi Rose components. He was really cool and he really knew his audio... perhaps that's why he took Mr. Big to Excel Audio...
Anyhow.. the store is Excel Audio in Newport Beach, CA.
He had the top of the line WIlson speakers set up with top of the line d'Agostino amps and preamp... and a very expensive media server and some crazy, 50lb DAC... cables were bigger than the hoses in my yard. Check out his web site. I only go there to listen, look at his used stuff, shoot the breeze and buy LPs.
One of these days I might buy a used Harbeth M30.1.... not the M30.2. He knows I'm looking for one. Or maybe... maybe... how about a nice used Audio Note AN-J/LX? Go for sound over accuracy? He doesn't carry Audio Note.
His listening room is quite good sounding, btw. It's always a good place to visit and I've met some interesting audiophiles. Turns out the ARC D70-Ii is still very well liked.
Anyhow, that day, at the store, Mike -the owner- was playing some "serious" Russian classical music (*). The recording sounded to me like I was floating above the orchestra, ( where the mikes most likely were ) and hearing specific instruments, quite clearly. BUT, the sound didn't jell... it didn't sound like an orchestra as we hear it from the middle of row M.
Perhaps, the High End has progressed beyond the goal of reproducing the experience of the recording into reproducing the detail of the recording. This might work fine if they were recording in 7 channels, but in 2ch stereo, we expect some interchannel interaction that reacts with the room to present some reasonable facsimile of the performance, not just the details of the instruments and voices.
It seems like the Mainstream High End has moved to a place that is antagonistic to the recording techniques. I don't want to hear the recording, I want to hear a reasonable facsimile of the performance. If it takes some distortions to do this in 2ch, then so be it.
This is why I laugh at the crowd in ASR... they are stuck in their Julian Hirsch mode... taking measurements all day long, never listening.
And then you got the Uber High Fi guys who will do listening to their designs, but they tend to go for... detail, uber-detail...
In my own opinion, I like designers like Nelson Pass who after listening, they tweak their designs to sound... good. Indeed, two of my amps have a switch (one preamp has a couple of internal pots) to select the bias from 2nd order or 3rd order THD. It makes a big difference... I prefer the warmer 2nd order mode, but 3rd order mode has more detail (and less overall THD..).
BTW, interestingly, the DIYAudio designs I really like are based on Nelson Pass designs. Indeed, this weekend I'm going up to Burning Amp '23, in Cupertino, gonna build my own 5 watt amps... Nelson will be there... also Andrew Jones, the speaker guy ( I picked up a pair of Elac Unifi 2 UB52 for a song, just a few months ago. A very fun speaker that punches way ahead of its price point. I got it for $500, new, at Amazon. I don't know what they run for in Oz, but I highly recommend them in your "toy/play" system.
https://burningampfestival.com/burning- ... ival-2023/
PS- Yes, those CJ amps are nice... I keep looking for an MV55... although those KT150s look good...it's just, as you noted, the price/performance has moved to far up and that opens the door for those very nice Pass Labs Class A amps.... Heck, if it weren't for the Maggies/Aleph 2, I would be down in the 35 watt world with the Audio Notes AN K/LX ( my alternate amp/speaker choice in the Big Rig ).
Anyhow... have fun!
(*) As you can imagine, places like Newport Beach attract the money over brains crowd. People who have lots of money and little time so they are willing to spend their way out of issues. Unlike Yours Truly..
Anyhow, this particular day he had a visitor for the Big Country in the Far East... the guy showed us pictures of his "audio room" back at home.. It looked like a huge Home Theater, only that it was strictly two channel. The guy was obviously into status... but his chauffeur was really cool. Turns out he has a pair of Maggie 1.7s and HiFi Rose components. He was really cool and he really knew his audio... perhaps that's why he took Mr. Big to Excel Audio...
Re: Oh! For the love of tubes!
Hola Tonye,
Great post and shows your knowledge about great brands. All I can say is: your ears, your liking.
My ears are more than happy with the gear that I own at this moment of my life. And I will add: my ears are grateful too. What I like most is the coherence, the stage and the harmonic texture of the sound quality. Being a musican, I can understand the fingering in a classical guitar or in the electric bass which are the instruments that I do play. The right resonances of the musical instruments are the clue here. The wind instruments are breathtaking. The tonal quality of the clarinet, the trumpet, the trombone, the tuba, the flugelhorn, the oboe, the fagot, the sax, you name it, are played with full harmonic texture with their right size and timber. Cymbals are projected to the air with a realism that I can hear the tip of the stick: wood or nylon. Even further, the force (micro dynamic) that the drummer is using for having the cymbals with the right timber that he wants. I can understand easily what the left hand of a piano player is doing vs the right hand. The draw of the violin with the bow and what the player is doing with it. Further more, I can sense when the bow goes up and comes down. I usually can call when the guitar is made in Spain, Japan, United Kingdom or Australia. Yes, there are more great guitars made on other countries, but these are very common into the Masters like Thomas Humphrey, (US made), Ramirez (Spain) Khono (Japan) or Jim Redgate (Australia). Each brand has its own sound characteristic and are played by the most famous guitar player of the world.
It is really interesting knowing that the SS design has a big evolution in forward direction. I some times use my Mark Levinson ML-6B mono preamps (old SS sound) when I decided to listen to analogue gear. I still own my father's Revox B77B reel to reel and my turntable Linn Sondek LP12 with MC cartridges. But the truth is that right now I am more into computer's digital sound which it is more convenient for me. I'm still rediscovering a lot of digital music. Recently, Jo Harrop is fantastic singing. Her quintet with strings, is amazing. I just realized that I haven't play my analogue gear for over almost a year. My ears are that happy with the quality of my Holo May Kte DAC and the CJ ET7V2 preamp. I am very impressed due to the fact that even files at 16/44.1KHz are fantastic with the Holo.
Oh well, again, this is my liking, and not necessary must be yours. It is great to find someone who is seeking for the right thing. I just found what really pleases me.
Great post and shows your knowledge about great brands. All I can say is: your ears, your liking.
My ears are more than happy with the gear that I own at this moment of my life. And I will add: my ears are grateful too. What I like most is the coherence, the stage and the harmonic texture of the sound quality. Being a musican, I can understand the fingering in a classical guitar or in the electric bass which are the instruments that I do play. The right resonances of the musical instruments are the clue here. The wind instruments are breathtaking. The tonal quality of the clarinet, the trumpet, the trombone, the tuba, the flugelhorn, the oboe, the fagot, the sax, you name it, are played with full harmonic texture with their right size and timber. Cymbals are projected to the air with a realism that I can hear the tip of the stick: wood or nylon. Even further, the force (micro dynamic) that the drummer is using for having the cymbals with the right timber that he wants. I can understand easily what the left hand of a piano player is doing vs the right hand. The draw of the violin with the bow and what the player is doing with it. Further more, I can sense when the bow goes up and comes down. I usually can call when the guitar is made in Spain, Japan, United Kingdom or Australia. Yes, there are more great guitars made on other countries, but these are very common into the Masters like Thomas Humphrey, (US made), Ramirez (Spain) Khono (Japan) or Jim Redgate (Australia). Each brand has its own sound characteristic and are played by the most famous guitar player of the world.
It is really interesting knowing that the SS design has a big evolution in forward direction. I some times use my Mark Levinson ML-6B mono preamps (old SS sound) when I decided to listen to analogue gear. I still own my father's Revox B77B reel to reel and my turntable Linn Sondek LP12 with MC cartridges. But the truth is that right now I am more into computer's digital sound which it is more convenient for me. I'm still rediscovering a lot of digital music. Recently, Jo Harrop is fantastic singing. Her quintet with strings, is amazing. I just realized that I haven't play my analogue gear for over almost a year. My ears are that happy with the quality of my Holo May Kte DAC and the CJ ET7V2 preamp. I am very impressed due to the fact that even files at 16/44.1KHz are fantastic with the Holo.
Oh well, again, this is my liking, and not necessary must be yours. It is great to find someone who is seeking for the right thing. I just found what really pleases me.
ML CLX BF-210 Stage X Motion 4. CJ 120SE amp ET7V2 pre, Holo May Kte Dac. Mac Pro. Power Cond. BPT Signature+ 3.5, Gaia II Feet. USB Lush^V3. Nordost SPM IC and Spk. Shun Mook, BCanto CD2 CD3. Linn LP-12/Unitrack tonearm/Denon DL103R MC.
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Big Dog RJ
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Re: Oh! For the love of tubes!
Good stuff maties! Keep those tooobs glowing and keep those tooons playing!
It's definitely all about the music, and as correctly pointed out in the above posts, there are many chaps who get carried away by the gear... overseeing the most important factor, the music!
I've said this many times before, putting together any high quality system is an Art form. It takes years! Even after quite a number of years, so called audiophiles still miss the point and keep going in circles. Just recently I touched base with another chap, he's sold off everything! So now he's starting from scratch, doesn't really know where to begin or what to look for. This I refer to as having "no reference point." That's why they go in circles and usually end up back to square one or with nothing.
Once you know your reference point, that's what you're really after... the type of sound you're looking for. That reference point has to come from either a live performance, attending a live gig of your favourite group or a very good system that was capable of reproducing fine recordings. In my opinion,
It has to meet at least the upper 90% range of what you prefer. It can never be 100% such a thing does not exist. So if you've put together a particular system and it meets or exceeds that upper 90% to your satisfaction, and I mean you really have to be honest with yourself here, then that's it! You're basically done! The rest can be carefully invested in cables or accessories or even the music itself, in whatever type of format you prefer.
Just to mention, I had two reference points:
1. Started out in the early 90's, when I attended a live gig by the group, FourPlay by Bob James. That was outstanding! After that I was mesmerised by that jazz fusion sound and razor sharp strings and drum whacks, I just had to build a system around that type of sound.
2. The other point of reference was when I first heard the ML Statements Evo-II's, now that was awe-inspiring! The sheer transparency of stats and the perfect sense of scale those Evo-II's reproduced so effortlessly was remarkable! Of course very hefty amplification was used, Threshold Statis SA/12e and CJ Prem8's! The preamp was the ART and so from that very early demo onwards, I knew straight away what my reference points were. It certainly took me around 15yrs to finally get there, and it was worth it, every penny spent. Of course a few disasters along the way... but then don't we all have our fair share of those.
So, once you've identified your reference point/s, done your utmost best to build a good quality playback system, there's only one thing to do!
Now, just leave the damn thing alone, sit back, pour that scotch and light that cigar. Oh! And do enjoy those fine tunes. Cheers,
RJ
It's definitely all about the music, and as correctly pointed out in the above posts, there are many chaps who get carried away by the gear... overseeing the most important factor, the music!
I've said this many times before, putting together any high quality system is an Art form. It takes years! Even after quite a number of years, so called audiophiles still miss the point and keep going in circles. Just recently I touched base with another chap, he's sold off everything! So now he's starting from scratch, doesn't really know where to begin or what to look for. This I refer to as having "no reference point." That's why they go in circles and usually end up back to square one or with nothing.
Once you know your reference point, that's what you're really after... the type of sound you're looking for. That reference point has to come from either a live performance, attending a live gig of your favourite group or a very good system that was capable of reproducing fine recordings. In my opinion,
It has to meet at least the upper 90% range of what you prefer. It can never be 100% such a thing does not exist. So if you've put together a particular system and it meets or exceeds that upper 90% to your satisfaction, and I mean you really have to be honest with yourself here, then that's it! You're basically done! The rest can be carefully invested in cables or accessories or even the music itself, in whatever type of format you prefer.
Just to mention, I had two reference points:
1. Started out in the early 90's, when I attended a live gig by the group, FourPlay by Bob James. That was outstanding! After that I was mesmerised by that jazz fusion sound and razor sharp strings and drum whacks, I just had to build a system around that type of sound.
2. The other point of reference was when I first heard the ML Statements Evo-II's, now that was awe-inspiring! The sheer transparency of stats and the perfect sense of scale those Evo-II's reproduced so effortlessly was remarkable! Of course very hefty amplification was used, Threshold Statis SA/12e and CJ Prem8's! The preamp was the ART and so from that very early demo onwards, I knew straight away what my reference points were. It certainly took me around 15yrs to finally get there, and it was worth it, every penny spent. Of course a few disasters along the way... but then don't we all have our fair share of those.
So, once you've identified your reference point/s, done your utmost best to build a good quality playback system, there's only one thing to do!
Now, just leave the damn thing alone, sit back, pour that scotch and light that cigar. Oh! And do enjoy those fine tunes. Cheers,
RJ
Re: Oh! For the love of tubes!
This "tube" is NOT a tube... it's a Class D device using a MOSFET and a solid state filter... somehow housed into a tube like enclosure.
I happen to have an NCore eval board, NC122MP OEM, which puts out 125 (4 ohms) wpc and with the case runs about 500 bucks.... there's also the NC250MP OEM which puts out 250 (4 ohms ) wpc. Both are stereo boards... They include the power supply, amp and output filter.
Then you got the Purifi boards as well.
Sorry, his "tube" is a curiosity, but NOT a tube nor a serious design.
Oh, I built the amps,.. 4 or 5 watts depending how I set the gain on it. Full control, bring out the DMMs and let the babies warm up ( heck, they get hot ).
Even if you don't want to build and/or don't know much about schematics and design, going to Burning Amp is awesome. Two days of spending time with people who truly are consumed with our hobby. They brought in their own designs ( preamps, speakers, amps, etc.. ) and were set up for extended listening for the whole two days. Nothing like an Audio Show with commercial stuff and sellers... nothing at all. Honestly, two days of listening, talking, about audio, with very intelligent people who really know their stuff.
One guy had a big stereo amp with four KT88 and two huge rows of MOSFETS. I guess it's call a cyclotron design, or something like that. I did a triple take when I saw it... tubes... OK.... big MOSFETs... OK... hmmm.. WAIT! WHAT? Naturally, no output transformers, I guess the power tubes are driven as the Front End (FE) of the amp.
BTW, there was a guy who's built his own Raspberry hat... with some really cool DACs.. incredible. I'm looking at building one myself.
I happen to have an NCore eval board, NC122MP OEM, which puts out 125 (4 ohms) wpc and with the case runs about 500 bucks.... there's also the NC250MP OEM which puts out 250 (4 ohms ) wpc. Both are stereo boards... They include the power supply, amp and output filter.
Then you got the Purifi boards as well.
Sorry, his "tube" is a curiosity, but NOT a tube nor a serious design.
Oh, I built the amps,.. 4 or 5 watts depending how I set the gain on it. Full control, bring out the DMMs and let the babies warm up ( heck, they get hot ).
Even if you don't want to build and/or don't know much about schematics and design, going to Burning Amp is awesome. Two days of spending time with people who truly are consumed with our hobby. They brought in their own designs ( preamps, speakers, amps, etc.. ) and were set up for extended listening for the whole two days. Nothing like an Audio Show with commercial stuff and sellers... nothing at all. Honestly, two days of listening, talking, about audio, with very intelligent people who really know their stuff.
One guy had a big stereo amp with four KT88 and two huge rows of MOSFETS. I guess it's call a cyclotron design, or something like that. I did a triple take when I saw it... tubes... OK.... big MOSFETs... OK... hmmm.. WAIT! WHAT? Naturally, no output transformers, I guess the power tubes are driven as the Front End (FE) of the amp.
BTW, there was a guy who's built his own Raspberry hat... with some really cool DACs.. incredible. I'm looking at building one myself.
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Big Dog RJ
- Ultimate
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Re: Oh! For the love of tubes!
Yeah, that's what I thought. That tube looked a bit odd, out of character to say the least. I knew it wasn't a true tooob... just a glass envelope with a whole lot of nasty going on inside. Very unusual thing when I first saw it. Quite intriguing but not interested.
I'll just stick with the norm, and enjoy those fine tunes!
Cheers, RJ
I'll just stick with the norm, and enjoy those fine tunes!
Cheers, RJ
Re: Oh! For the love of tubes!
Not sure what the draw for those SS "tubes" are other than the fact that they probably have longer lives than vacuum tubes and are not so influenced by the current Russian embargo issues.
As for those premade boards like the NC122MP, they look interesting and of course if you like DIY they seem to be a reasonable option, especially given their low price points. The thing that I don't like about these boards (including the knockoff CJ designs that they sell on ebay), is that the circuit design may be good, they load the board with the absolute cheapest parts. Really the 20 cent Chinese caps and cheapest transformer that they can find that "meets the specs." I never see any of these boards with higher quality parts. That doesn't of course mean that they may not sound good or that they are not a good bargain, but when I mod my equipment, I'm usually trying to put better than stock components in, not the other way around. Just my 2 cents.
As for those premade boards like the NC122MP, they look interesting and of course if you like DIY they seem to be a reasonable option, especially given their low price points. The thing that I don't like about these boards (including the knockoff CJ designs that they sell on ebay), is that the circuit design may be good, they load the board with the absolute cheapest parts. Really the 20 cent Chinese caps and cheapest transformer that they can find that "meets the specs." I never see any of these boards with higher quality parts. That doesn't of course mean that they may not sound good or that they are not a good bargain, but when I mod my equipment, I'm usually trying to put better than stock components in, not the other way around. Just my 2 cents.
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Home Theater in Member Gallery
Main stereo: ART Amplifier and ET7s2. 2nd stereo: PV-14L and MV-55. Previously Owned: PF2 preamp, Evolution 2000 Amp, PV-12AL preamp, D/A-2b Vacuum-Tube Digital Processor.
Home Theater in Member Gallery
Main stereo: ART Amplifier and ET7s2. 2nd stereo: PV-14L and MV-55. Previously Owned: PF2 preamp, Evolution 2000 Amp, PV-12AL preamp, D/A-2b Vacuum-Tube Digital Processor.
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Big Dog RJ
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CJ is preferred
I thought I'd create a new topic but then I realised that this one is for the love of tooobs.
So, I was in touch with a few of my former dealer mates in Spore and HK. Seems like apart from the lapse of interest in carrying the Clarisys line, mainly due to exorbitant pricing and the fact that Clarisys is made in Vietnam... another very well recognised make that's not getting much sales is ARC!
This is partly due to the ownership changes that have occurred and the production line plus model availability in those markets. On a very positive note, there's one particular make that has exceeded demand and continues to be in high demand with regards to its ART series amplifiers, that's CJ!
Exceeding demand has found a new category in CJ's vintage line and the models that were just phased out: LP series, ART series, Classic 60/se, Classic 1/se preamps, and GAT/S2. There's a particular group who've managed to acquire such gear and are going to extremes to service and update their gear, good on them!
Then there's the other category of clients who have the means to acquire the latest ART series gear, and are now looking at the ART phono-preamp. So this particular group are very interested in a full ART line-up installation in their systems. I would agree 110% since I was told some of the speakers these chaps own with their ART gear: Magico, Zellaton, Genesis, Kharma Ref, Wilson, SF, B&W Nautilus, Alsyvox, ML and Diptyque to name a few. Yep, might as well partner these with CJ's top of the line if you've got the coin!
The current pulse is that ARC has become a mid-fi product. Certainly wasn't the case a decade or two ago but these chaps are going for the top of the line and their first choice is CJ. Now that's very refreshing to hear, and I will be heading out there again early Feb or March. Must audition the new ART phono-preamp, I think JF has really hit the mark. As I auditioned the top line ART gear in July, it was mighty mighty fine indeed. Adding in the ART phono-preamp would be so very fine, I might just fall off the seat!
So, here's a big cheers to CJ! Oh, for the love of tubes.
WOOF! RJ
So, I was in touch with a few of my former dealer mates in Spore and HK. Seems like apart from the lapse of interest in carrying the Clarisys line, mainly due to exorbitant pricing and the fact that Clarisys is made in Vietnam... another very well recognised make that's not getting much sales is ARC!
This is partly due to the ownership changes that have occurred and the production line plus model availability in those markets. On a very positive note, there's one particular make that has exceeded demand and continues to be in high demand with regards to its ART series amplifiers, that's CJ!
Exceeding demand has found a new category in CJ's vintage line and the models that were just phased out: LP series, ART series, Classic 60/se, Classic 1/se preamps, and GAT/S2. There's a particular group who've managed to acquire such gear and are going to extremes to service and update their gear, good on them!
Then there's the other category of clients who have the means to acquire the latest ART series gear, and are now looking at the ART phono-preamp. So this particular group are very interested in a full ART line-up installation in their systems. I would agree 110% since I was told some of the speakers these chaps own with their ART gear: Magico, Zellaton, Genesis, Kharma Ref, Wilson, SF, B&W Nautilus, Alsyvox, ML and Diptyque to name a few. Yep, might as well partner these with CJ's top of the line if you've got the coin!
The current pulse is that ARC has become a mid-fi product. Certainly wasn't the case a decade or two ago but these chaps are going for the top of the line and their first choice is CJ. Now that's very refreshing to hear, and I will be heading out there again early Feb or March. Must audition the new ART phono-preamp, I think JF has really hit the mark. As I auditioned the top line ART gear in July, it was mighty mighty fine indeed. Adding in the ART phono-preamp would be so very fine, I might just fall off the seat!
So, here's a big cheers to CJ! Oh, for the love of tubes.
WOOF! RJ
Re: Oh! For the love of tubes!
Glad to hear about the high interest in the CJ line. I think that there is good draw for the high end client that we now have a complete ART series along the entire signal path. With the introduction of the phono stage ART series, it really does complete the picture.
A little saddened to hear about the decline of ARC. I was happy to hear they have remedied their immediate financial woes, but I can definitely see how that would scare off potential customers. I truly hope they can regain their previous status as they do make some fine gear and have a tradition of excellence.
A little saddened to hear about the decline of ARC. I was happy to hear they have remedied their immediate financial woes, but I can definitely see how that would scare off potential customers. I truly hope they can regain their previous status as they do make some fine gear and have a tradition of excellence.
Boy would like to get into those rooms. Can you imagine, a full ART series lineup by CJ mixed with those ultra high end speakers?Big Dog RJ wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 9:36 am Then there's the other category of clients who have the means to acquire the latest ART series gear, and are now looking at the ART phono-preamp. So this particular group are very interested in a full ART line-up installation in their systems. I would agree 110% since I was told some of the speakers these chaps own with their ART gear: Magico, Zellaton, Genesis, Kharma Ref, Wilson, SF, B&W Nautilus, Alsyvox, ML and Diptyque to name a few. Yep, might as well partner these with CJ's top of the line if you've got the coin!
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Home Theater in Member Gallery
Main stereo: ART Amplifier and ET7s2. 2nd stereo: PV-14L and MV-55. Previously Owned: PF2 preamp, Evolution 2000 Amp, PV-12AL preamp, D/A-2b Vacuum-Tube Digital Processor.
Home Theater in Member Gallery
Main stereo: ART Amplifier and ET7s2. 2nd stereo: PV-14L and MV-55. Previously Owned: PF2 preamp, Evolution 2000 Amp, PV-12AL preamp, D/A-2b Vacuum-Tube Digital Processor.
Re: Oh! For the love of tubes!
The "premade boards like the NC122MP" are eval boards.... so that's how they work. Fun stuff to play with.
BTW, I literally smoked the right channel of my super duper macho XA-252 SIT ( a clone version of the Pass Labs XA25 with SIT ). The builder burnt it in for two weeks, but when I got it, I put it on the shelf, not out on the open. Warmed it up for about two hours and then started playing. It sounded great, really, REALLY great. Then, as I was playing Can Can my daughter walked by and asked me: "Dad, do you smell smoke?"
You ain't an audiophile until you've grabbed a big box by its handles, slid it out of the shelf only to see smoke... lotsa smoke. Playing with fire at the edge of design... the DIY stuff often is State Of The Art prototype stuff. Running biases that would scare the lawyers and the liability insurance company: "You can't sell it running at 65C!!"
Anyhow, while the builder is putting it back together, I'm addressing the cooling options. I guess that just an inch and a half ain't enough for that one stereo amp (5U/400 chassis). I'm getting new plates made and will likely insert some fans in the equation. The issue now is not the heatsinks and the components attached there, but the heat inside the chassis. I might run it on an amp stand or put it on the top shelf. I also ordered taller shelf columns ( 12 inches, vs 10 ) so that will help a little too.
But, it sounded glorious until I put the Can Can on.... dang it...
The ET3SE is really sounding great too. It's one of those things that is stable and sounds really good. It just works perfectly with class A amps, specially SIT amps.
I do hope that CJ pays attention to the used market and starts to support their classic products. I count myself lucky that I was in time to get the teflon caps for my PV9.
As far as ARC... "mid-fi", WTH? Actually, I'd say the flip side... I consider ARC going to good sounding, reasonably priced, bling-less components a return to its roots.
Perhaps we need to coin a new term for the Status Seeking Hi-End..... Yeah... BLING AUDIO.
Anyhow.
Oh, I brought out the Acoustic Energy AE1s into the mix. They look tiny next to the Maggies and Audio Notes... but those old speakers (with factory supplied replacement surrounds) still sound wonderful. I'd guess those metal drivers love tubes and class A SS amps.
BTW, I literally smoked the right channel of my super duper macho XA-252 SIT ( a clone version of the Pass Labs XA25 with SIT ). The builder burnt it in for two weeks, but when I got it, I put it on the shelf, not out on the open. Warmed it up for about two hours and then started playing. It sounded great, really, REALLY great. Then, as I was playing Can Can my daughter walked by and asked me: "Dad, do you smell smoke?"
You ain't an audiophile until you've grabbed a big box by its handles, slid it out of the shelf only to see smoke... lotsa smoke. Playing with fire at the edge of design... the DIY stuff often is State Of The Art prototype stuff. Running biases that would scare the lawyers and the liability insurance company: "You can't sell it running at 65C!!"
Anyhow, while the builder is putting it back together, I'm addressing the cooling options. I guess that just an inch and a half ain't enough for that one stereo amp (5U/400 chassis). I'm getting new plates made and will likely insert some fans in the equation. The issue now is not the heatsinks and the components attached there, but the heat inside the chassis. I might run it on an amp stand or put it on the top shelf. I also ordered taller shelf columns ( 12 inches, vs 10 ) so that will help a little too.
But, it sounded glorious until I put the Can Can on.... dang it...
The ET3SE is really sounding great too. It's one of those things that is stable and sounds really good. It just works perfectly with class A amps, specially SIT amps.
I'm sorry, but you're looking at a very distorted market... people with way too much money in that part of the world throwing money at stuff. I don't consider them audiophiles. I consider them rich people with no time to spare and money to solve their problems. They don't invest time to understand what they got.... pffft. There a huge element of status with these people and their purchases.Big Dog RJ wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 9:36 am ...
Then there's the other category of clients who have the means to acquire the latest ART series gear,... Magico, Zellaton, Genesis, Kharma Ref, Wilson, SF, B&W Nautilus, Alsyvox, ML and Diptyque to name a few. Yep, might as well partner these with CJ's top of the line if you've got the coin!
The current pulse is that ARC has become a mid-fi product. Certainly wasn't the case a decade or two ago but these chaps are going for the top of the line and their first choice is CJ. Now that's very refreshing to hear, and I will be heading out there again early Feb or March. Must audition the new ART phono-preamp, I think JF has really hit the mark. As I auditioned the top line ART gear in July, it was mighty mighty fine indeed. Adding in the ART phono-preamp would be so very fine, I might just fall off the seat!
I do hope that CJ pays attention to the used market and starts to support their classic products. I count myself lucky that I was in time to get the teflon caps for my PV9.
As far as ARC... "mid-fi", WTH? Actually, I'd say the flip side... I consider ARC going to good sounding, reasonably priced, bling-less components a return to its roots.
Perhaps we need to coin a new term for the Status Seeking Hi-End..... Yeah... BLING AUDIO.
Anyhow.
Oh, I brought out the Acoustic Energy AE1s into the mix. They look tiny next to the Maggies and Audio Notes... but those old speakers (with factory supplied replacement surrounds) still sound wonderful. I'd guess those metal drivers love tubes and class A SS amps.
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MattHooper
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Re: Oh! For the love of tubes!
Speaking of For The Love Of Tubes...
Time and time again it is re-enforced that I'm a Tubes-For-Life audiophile.
That is the case whenever I grab a SS amp to compare with my CJs in my system, or listen to SS based systems elsewhere.
Recently a friend of mine, an audio reviewer, said I should come over and listen to a set up he just put together. I'm used to hearing mega-buck gear and speakers at his home. But he'd just acquired a second hand pair of older Totem floor standing speakers. I'm familiar with Totem and like but not love their house sound. My pal said these were teeny little floorstanders he was currently driving with some 300B tube amps he had in for review, and that it was blowing his mind how good the sound was. It would be right up my alley.
So when I dropped over..holy cow was he ever right! These teeny speakers utterly disappeared, cast a huge soundstage with precise imaging, and nice precise transients and wonderful texture. Overall, the sound was huge, spacious, tonally rich, organic, sparkling, with suprisingly satisfying warm yet controlled bass. Again, I hear tons of super expensive set ups there, but almost none have hit all my buttons like that little set up. (Though it would congest if asked to play too loudly, or with really demanding, complex material). I just wanted to keep listening to track after track.
Fast forward to me dropping over again recently. He still had the Totems set up so I was listening, flipping through tracks on Roon, and it was still...pretty good. But for some reason not "magic." I wasn't feeling amazed, seduced, drawn in, wanting to keep playing music as much.
Well it turned out he wasn't using those tube amps anymore (sent back after review). The Totems were now being driven by the gigantic Hegel SS amps on the floor. Ah...that explains it! The system now had that sort of buttoned down, harder edged, more constricted and "uptight" sound I often hear with SS driven systems. Back home firing up the same tracks on my CJ driven system allowed me to go "aaah" again. Whatever the compromises, I can't give up what I love about the sound of tubes (at least, certain tube amplification)
Time and time again it is re-enforced that I'm a Tubes-For-Life audiophile.
That is the case whenever I grab a SS amp to compare with my CJs in my system, or listen to SS based systems elsewhere.
Recently a friend of mine, an audio reviewer, said I should come over and listen to a set up he just put together. I'm used to hearing mega-buck gear and speakers at his home. But he'd just acquired a second hand pair of older Totem floor standing speakers. I'm familiar with Totem and like but not love their house sound. My pal said these were teeny little floorstanders he was currently driving with some 300B tube amps he had in for review, and that it was blowing his mind how good the sound was. It would be right up my alley.
So when I dropped over..holy cow was he ever right! These teeny speakers utterly disappeared, cast a huge soundstage with precise imaging, and nice precise transients and wonderful texture. Overall, the sound was huge, spacious, tonally rich, organic, sparkling, with suprisingly satisfying warm yet controlled bass. Again, I hear tons of super expensive set ups there, but almost none have hit all my buttons like that little set up. (Though it would congest if asked to play too loudly, or with really demanding, complex material). I just wanted to keep listening to track after track.
Fast forward to me dropping over again recently. He still had the Totems set up so I was listening, flipping through tracks on Roon, and it was still...pretty good. But for some reason not "magic." I wasn't feeling amazed, seduced, drawn in, wanting to keep playing music as much.
Well it turned out he wasn't using those tube amps anymore (sent back after review). The Totems were now being driven by the gigantic Hegel SS amps on the floor. Ah...that explains it! The system now had that sort of buttoned down, harder edged, more constricted and "uptight" sound I often hear with SS driven systems. Back home firing up the same tracks on my CJ driven system allowed me to go "aaah" again. Whatever the compromises, I can't give up what I love about the sound of tubes (at least, certain tube amplification)
Re: Oh! For the love of tubes!
I've found similar instances myself. Sometimes those very expensive setups just don't have the "magic". Often hard to put one's finger on it. You may not even notice until it's gone. Sounds like this was such a case. Magic with tubes, but without, just another "great system." It's the subtle elevation that of the sound that makes something truly special.
-admin
Home Theater in Member Gallery
Main stereo: ART Amplifier and ET7s2. 2nd stereo: PV-14L and MV-55. Previously Owned: PF2 preamp, Evolution 2000 Amp, PV-12AL preamp, D/A-2b Vacuum-Tube Digital Processor.
Home Theater in Member Gallery
Main stereo: ART Amplifier and ET7s2. 2nd stereo: PV-14L and MV-55. Previously Owned: PF2 preamp, Evolution 2000 Amp, PV-12AL preamp, D/A-2b Vacuum-Tube Digital Processor.
Re: Oh! For the love of tubes!
What was the preamp in that system?
Solid state can be good, but it has to be class A and then the components need to have been chosen.... I find tubes and FETs go hand in hand very nicely.
If you can find one, try the First Watt SIT-1, 2 or 3.. Solid state triode sound. You will need 90+ db/w speakers though. The Pass Labs XA-25 is also outstanding. I heard the top d'Agostino amps... maybe it was the uber expensive Wilson speakers, but I was not too impressed, they lacked warmth.
I guess we're all in love with negative 2nd order THD. A good thing.
I got some little DIY-Audio ( Burning Amp ) sub 10 watt amps, based on class A MOSFETs that will simply blow your head away... I've hooked them up to my Maggies, with a CJ preamp ( PV9-Teflon and ET3SE ) and the resulting sound blows my away... Not loud, not lots of deep bass, but realistic as it comes from the mid bass to the treble... sure, volume at 9 not 11... yet, I could live with that sound.
-Of course, the baby Audio Notes.... hmm... they're playing right now with clone SIT-3 and the ET3SE, just playing the radio -Kenwood KT9900-... 94.7 FM Los Angeles, yikes
Honestly, IMHO, the preamp is extremely important, so is the source. Just get an amp that sounds good and don't worry about playing Beethoven's Eroica, or Mega Death Metal, and you will be in Music Heaven.
Another thing... sometimes, tube preamp and tube amp can be too much of a good thing. For eons I ran the PV9 with an ARC D70-II.... what saved that set up from being too syrupy was the Acoustic Energy AE1 speakers. If you like the Totem minis, you will love the AE1s.
Which comes back to System Synergy. It's not a matter of money, but a matter of combining components that SOUND GOOD TOGETHER.
You know when that happens.... you sit down for "just a couple of songs" and a few hours later you take a break.
Solid state can be good, but it has to be class A and then the components need to have been chosen.... I find tubes and FETs go hand in hand very nicely.
If you can find one, try the First Watt SIT-1, 2 or 3.. Solid state triode sound. You will need 90+ db/w speakers though. The Pass Labs XA-25 is also outstanding. I heard the top d'Agostino amps... maybe it was the uber expensive Wilson speakers, but I was not too impressed, they lacked warmth.
I guess we're all in love with negative 2nd order THD. A good thing.
I got some little DIY-Audio ( Burning Amp ) sub 10 watt amps, based on class A MOSFETs that will simply blow your head away... I've hooked them up to my Maggies, with a CJ preamp ( PV9-Teflon and ET3SE ) and the resulting sound blows my away... Not loud, not lots of deep bass, but realistic as it comes from the mid bass to the treble... sure, volume at 9 not 11... yet, I could live with that sound.
-Of course, the baby Audio Notes.... hmm... they're playing right now with clone SIT-3 and the ET3SE, just playing the radio -Kenwood KT9900-... 94.7 FM Los Angeles, yikes
Honestly, IMHO, the preamp is extremely important, so is the source. Just get an amp that sounds good and don't worry about playing Beethoven's Eroica, or Mega Death Metal, and you will be in Music Heaven.
Another thing... sometimes, tube preamp and tube amp can be too much of a good thing. For eons I ran the PV9 with an ARC D70-II.... what saved that set up from being too syrupy was the Acoustic Energy AE1 speakers. If you like the Totem minis, you will love the AE1s.
Which comes back to System Synergy. It's not a matter of money, but a matter of combining components that SOUND GOOD TOGETHER.
You know when that happens.... you sit down for "just a couple of songs" and a few hours later you take a break.
-
Big Dog RJ
- Ultimate
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- Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:30 am
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Oh! For the love of tubes!
Yes, that's correct what tonye is referring to. And I've heard it extensively and that is the sole reason why I decided to mod to Class A output.
The Class A design does something very extraordinary with the signal, such that it sounds completely full of life! Totally realistic scale and very noticeable, a sort of upfront tonality with no holding back. It's definitely not soft and totally different to Class B or any other class in an Output stage.
Take that pure design of Class A and incorporate it with tube gear, and it performs incredibly well! This is another reason why I just love those ART108A's, superb!!!
It also heavily depends on the type of speakers you're driving. For example, the ML CLX's, which have notorious impedence swings but quite high efficiency, around 92dB. Basically what's required here is highly stable voltage with high current capacity to handle the stats full range, and modded to 60w Class A is more than adequate. Even in this case, Class AB would be fine, as long as those two other design elements have been properly implemented (stable voltages with high current).
Typically, CJ's earlier power amps, Premier and LP series and their ART series, all have a relatively higher Class A bias before they switch into Class AB. Most of this listening range at decent audible levels, are within Class A, so it ever hardly goes into Class AB unless you listen crazy loud. Even then, your speakers have to be able to take this much input power without audible distortion and the room dimensions have to match well. Not all speakers are high performance speakers either.
Now, with the further advanced trannies used on CJ's top of the line ART series amplifiers, their Class A bias is even higher and they just cruise along... no strain whatsoever. It's quite an interesting experience to hear their latest designs driving high performance speakers, totally awesome!
However, all this Class A or AB is well and good, there's no definite rule in properly designed Output stages, every designer has their own way of doing things and creating what is closely as accurate, that's know to them. At the end of the day, just enjoy the music, that's all that matters!
Cheers, and do enjoy those fine tunes!
Woof! RJ
The Class A design does something very extraordinary with the signal, such that it sounds completely full of life! Totally realistic scale and very noticeable, a sort of upfront tonality with no holding back. It's definitely not soft and totally different to Class B or any other class in an Output stage.
Take that pure design of Class A and incorporate it with tube gear, and it performs incredibly well! This is another reason why I just love those ART108A's, superb!!!
It also heavily depends on the type of speakers you're driving. For example, the ML CLX's, which have notorious impedence swings but quite high efficiency, around 92dB. Basically what's required here is highly stable voltage with high current capacity to handle the stats full range, and modded to 60w Class A is more than adequate. Even in this case, Class AB would be fine, as long as those two other design elements have been properly implemented (stable voltages with high current).
Typically, CJ's earlier power amps, Premier and LP series and their ART series, all have a relatively higher Class A bias before they switch into Class AB. Most of this listening range at decent audible levels, are within Class A, so it ever hardly goes into Class AB unless you listen crazy loud. Even then, your speakers have to be able to take this much input power without audible distortion and the room dimensions have to match well. Not all speakers are high performance speakers either.
Now, with the further advanced trannies used on CJ's top of the line ART series amplifiers, their Class A bias is even higher and they just cruise along... no strain whatsoever. It's quite an interesting experience to hear their latest designs driving high performance speakers, totally awesome!
However, all this Class A or AB is well and good, there's no definite rule in properly designed Output stages, every designer has their own way of doing things and creating what is closely as accurate, that's know to them. At the end of the day, just enjoy the music, that's all that matters!
Cheers, and do enjoy those fine tunes!
Woof! RJ
Re: Oh! For the love of tubes!
The Class A sound is special, no doubt.
I wish I could have been down in DC for the audio show this past weekend. Really would have loved to listen to the new CJ line in all its glory.
I wish I could have been down in DC for the audio show this past weekend. Really would have loved to listen to the new CJ line in all its glory.
-admin
Home Theater in Member Gallery
Main stereo: ART Amplifier and ET7s2. 2nd stereo: PV-14L and MV-55. Previously Owned: PF2 preamp, Evolution 2000 Amp, PV-12AL preamp, D/A-2b Vacuum-Tube Digital Processor.
Home Theater in Member Gallery
Main stereo: ART Amplifier and ET7s2. 2nd stereo: PV-14L and MV-55. Previously Owned: PF2 preamp, Evolution 2000 Amp, PV-12AL preamp, D/A-2b Vacuum-Tube Digital Processor.
Re: Oh! For the love of tubes!
Hola Chicos,
One of my best friends and a crazy audiophile just passed. His system was more like mine, having him all kinds of electronics around too. There were Pass Labs preamp XP-12 and a XA-30.8 power amp. This is a 35 Watts power amp with a real weight of 88 pounds. More weight than my Classic 120. I had them here in my system for almost a week, and I can say, this is a good electronic design and clean sound. But my ears are for tubes. I used balanced and single ended connections, and my favorite is single ended. Don't ask me why? I just feel and sense more realism with single ended than balanced. Good cables too. Once I was back with my beloved ET-7VII and my Classic 120SE, I was more than in heaven. I tried the McCormick mono DNA-750 too.
Where I felt more music info was at the lower midrange and upper bass music. Also, a clear win, well articulated and more coherence with my ET-7 and Classic 120. SS is good, but still there is kind of metallic sound, also a brightness that does not belongs to the musical instruments and voices...
Yes, I know, this is my liking and not necessary must be yours.
Also, I had the Lampizator Big Seven...a very nice sounding DAC...and a see thought top cover...there is wood all over securing all the PC boards. The truth is that the Holo May KTE made my choice. I have being a little busy trying to sell his goods, because nobody of his family is that crazy audiophile.
There is a PS Audio BHK Signature preamp, and the Audio Research big goods too.
I wish to all of you a very happy listening!
One of my best friends and a crazy audiophile just passed. His system was more like mine, having him all kinds of electronics around too. There were Pass Labs preamp XP-12 and a XA-30.8 power amp. This is a 35 Watts power amp with a real weight of 88 pounds. More weight than my Classic 120. I had them here in my system for almost a week, and I can say, this is a good electronic design and clean sound. But my ears are for tubes. I used balanced and single ended connections, and my favorite is single ended. Don't ask me why? I just feel and sense more realism with single ended than balanced. Good cables too. Once I was back with my beloved ET-7VII and my Classic 120SE, I was more than in heaven. I tried the McCormick mono DNA-750 too.
Where I felt more music info was at the lower midrange and upper bass music. Also, a clear win, well articulated and more coherence with my ET-7 and Classic 120. SS is good, but still there is kind of metallic sound, also a brightness that does not belongs to the musical instruments and voices...
Yes, I know, this is my liking and not necessary must be yours.
Also, I had the Lampizator Big Seven...a very nice sounding DAC...and a see thought top cover...there is wood all over securing all the PC boards. The truth is that the Holo May KTE made my choice. I have being a little busy trying to sell his goods, because nobody of his family is that crazy audiophile.
There is a PS Audio BHK Signature preamp, and the Audio Research big goods too.
I wish to all of you a very happy listening!
ML CLX BF-210 Stage X Motion 4. CJ 120SE amp ET7V2 pre, Holo May Kte Dac. Mac Pro. Power Cond. BPT Signature+ 3.5, Gaia II Feet. USB Lush^V3. Nordost SPM IC and Spk. Shun Mook, BCanto CD2 CD3. Linn LP-12/Unitrack tonearm/Denon DL103R MC.