Preamp (opposition) pairing with Prem 350

[artoly]

Sadly I lost an auction for a C-J ET-5 in NZ recently (I pulled out when it was getting close to $5K USD equiv). I'm sure someone else will be enjoying it though (jealous much?). My guess is that a C-J pre of that level and price range would only come around every few years here in NZ, so the question that I hope I'm allowed to ask on this forum;

While awaiting the perfect C-J preamp deal to come along for me, does anyone know if an Audio Research Reference 3 would play well with a Premier 350? Unusually, one is on the market here at the moment in my price range. I know it is not the right brand ....or the right colour, but perhaps as a temporary measure? I've never owned anything with valves and am not very technical about matching issues that I might encounter.

[admin]

Sorry to hear about the auction. "You win some you lose some", I think we've all been there.

As for the Audio Research. I think they are top tier. A little while ago I would have been hesitant to buy any of their products due to their financial issues and near bankruptcy, but I think they have that all sorted out and their future looks promising. Not sure how much the Reference 3's are going for on the market, but I would make sure it is in good condition as any unit pushing 2 decades can potentially start developing issues and repairs can be costly.

Keep us updated.

[SolderSlinger]

It's always hard to give recommendations on one piece of equipment vs another. There are significant differences in listening rooms, ancillary equipment, cables, AC power, etc. that make it difficult to recommend equipment. I have an ET5, and t's been in my system the longest. From time to time I do think about upgrading to a GAT 2 but it's short lived due to cost delta. It's not just the cost of the GAT2, I also would have to upgrade many other aspects of my system and room to exploit the capability of a GAT2. I've never owned an ARC Reference 3. The most recent ARC preamps I've had are the LP25MK2 and the LS17SE. I really liked the feel of the LS25MK2 switches. Very high quality. While there is a sonic difference between gear, the main thing to consider with a Ref 3 vs ET5 is interconnect cable length from the preamp to amplifier. The ET5 can easily drive longer cables, and cables with complex impedances. The Ref 3 low end will roll off with longer cables. Same with the LS25MK2 and LS17SE. If your interconnect length is standard 1M then no worries.

My $0.02 is to not worry about a certain brand. There are many great brands to choose from. I've heard good things from friends with good ears and systems about Allnic and VAC. Once you've found a preamp and get the system running, you can experiment with different equipment in your own listening room.

Have Fun!

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes! Agree 110% with the above post by S-S.

The ET5 would have been supremely matched with your Prem 350 or even better the ACT2! I had that very same combination upto the ACT2 S2, brute force with finesse... lookout! That amplifier didn't flinch one bit, and it has a much higher Class A bias compared to any of CJ's solid state power amplifiers. The Prem350A was the last one in its iteration and it even surpassed the MF2550se, although the MF2550 series was CJ's very last SS offering.

Although the perfect solution would be another CJ preamp... others, such as VAC and Allnic are on par. They make some superb gear and they do design them really well. As I've mentioned before, three very critical areas that are highly regarded in every CJ design:

Power supplies
Tube circuits
High quality parts

CJ does not compromise in these areas, and these design elements is what sets apart the real audio gear from the norm. CJ sets the standard and it's a reference standard.

As far as the ARC gear is concerned, yes this is truly tops! However, there's always an element of trial and error. Certain types of ARC gear may work quite well and others not so. To just confirm whether or not a Ref3 would work with your Prem350 is simply something none of us can confirm. Unless there was someone on this forum that had that very same pre-power combination. It's definitely a rare combination but who knows, it might work!

Any of these CJ top tier preamps would work mighty fine with the Prem350; ACT2/S2, ET5 or CT5. Although getting on in years... if you find a unit in top nick, and look after it well, it will perform for many years. You don't really need brand new or the latest & greatest to enjoy those fine tunes.

Apart from VAC and Allnic, there's Lamm, CAT, Audio Note, Air Tight and Leben to name a few. Very high quality all tube based and sound marvellous! Each one of these has a different flavour, so if there's any possibility of trying these out or demos, then you'll be able to identify preferences.

BTW, you mentioned NZ... there's a very top notch audio brand designed and made in your country, called Plinius.
It's all SS gear but they make some very fine amplifiers. Perhaps you could check out one of their preamps, partnered with the Prem350, it might be an option!

Cheers, RJ

[artoly]

Thank you admin, SolderSlinger and RJ. Your thoughts are much appreciated.

Surprisingly, I just found this on an old Soundstage, Mark Mickelson, Premier 350 review;
"I used it with both an Audio Research Reference 3 tubed preamp and ... the Premier 350's high voltage gain and sensitivity created some hiss with the Reference 3."
I wonder if that was a one-off/anomaly for the reviewers combo, or if that issue would apply to all Ref 3's paired with Prem 350's. Perhaps that is another question that is difficult to answer? I'll keep pondering until the AR Ref 3 auction day arrives.

Taking a few risks with older age units without hearing first is often the only way to get to the level of sound that I aspire to. E.g. I knew little about C-J, let alone the 18-19 year old Premier 350 , but taking that risk has been very rewarding indeed.
I'm not complaining and have a nice system already, but note that the market in NZ is small. In the used $3000-$5000 USD range (where an ET5 and maybe an ACT2 would sit in USA), my searching only brings up 2 separate preamps, one of which with valves. Importing can be possible, but that has risk and costs.

[admin]

Hiss can happen due to many reasons. I've never found a consistent cause and most commonly I've encountered it with a poor cartridge to phono preamp combo. Bad tubes can hiss, sometimes I think people confuse a low level ground loop (which is very common) with "hiss". I guess my point is that I don't really expect hiss with any particular combo (CJ or otherwise), but it is one of those things that one can encounter, and have multiple times.

I recently bought a PV-14L and as soon as I turned it on there was noticeable hiss (and some distortion as well). Turned out the tubes needed to be replaced. Quick and easy fix.

As for price and location. Yeah, I do feel sorry for your guys (in that respect) down there. I'm sure RJ cries inside a little every time we over here in the States complain about the price of X or Y unit while you guys pay close to double, if it's able to be shipped there in the first place. On the flip side you get to live in one of the most beautiful places in the world (NZ is on my bucket list of places to visit).

[SolderSlinger]

I understand your concern about importing audio gear. I live in the Detroit, Michigan, USA and have imported a few items.

As a suggestion, there's an ET5 on Audiomart right now. It was posted yesterday at $3,400.00, and the seller is located in Sharon, MA. Buy it and have it sent to Conrad Johnson for a checkup (ask for a Phillips 7DJ8 at the same time) then have CJ send it to you. Might cost a little more, but you'll receive a "Blessed" CJ ET5. Rates might have changed but pre-pandemic, CJ charged a minimum of $300 for a service inspection, a Phillips 7DJ8 was around $90, and a new box was about $90 too. Worth pointing out that any equipment sent to CJ for service requires buying a new box for return shipment.

ET5 Link
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650 ... amplifier/

[admin]

Good find. Not sure how much all the extra cost for shipping and servicing would be but it may be viable. And having a CJ serviced unit is worth quite a bit in terms of assuring a long trouble free life. Especially if you are outside of the US. Also, you can have them do the voltage conversion at the same time (NZ is 240v I believe). You may be able to get away without having to buy a new shipping box, the look on those pictures makes it look pretty much brand new. A lot better than most of the older CJ gear I have bought in the past!

[SolderSlinger]

Good point. I forgot about voltage conversion.

[artoly]

Thanks for the suggestions about including C-J and servicing as an option to buy from US and the link SolderSlinger. A freshly serviced one does have appeal. I am a little nervous of the cost for local + international shipping + taxes, but will look into it. I also emailed C-J to see if they are happy to provide those services.

[SolderSlinger]

You're welcome. After you hear back from Conrad Johnson, please share what you findout.

Look at Shippo for international shipping. https://goshippo.com/?utm_source=adword ... gJX6PD_BwE

Rates are unbelievably low. Nor much more than it would cost to ship within the continental USA. And unlike UPS or FedEx it is possible to "buy" shipping insurance >$2,000.00. I say "buy" because while UPS and FedEx will take your money for high value insurance, if you read the fine print, international shipments have a maximum payout of $2,000.00 per item.

[Big Dog RJ]

Good stuff on that ET5, fantastic price! Wow wee

Yep, as noted the only costs incurred would be shipping and handling. Voltage conversion can be done very easily at CJ HQ, Jeff or any one of his techies would do that eyes closed.

Keep us posted mate.

Oh! One thing I forgot to mention is the ACT2 original version had a very annoying hiss. No matter what, it just wouldn't go away. The version 2 was much quieter, perhaps CJ adjusted a few internal wiring don't know.
So an ACT2 is tops as long as you could tolerate a slight hiss from both channels.

With that said, the ET5 would be a fine upgrade from the ACT2 series.
Cheers, RJ

[artoly]

No word from C-J yet, but then it's not the end of the week in there/your part of the world yet.
My tendency at the moment is to see if I can get the AR Ref 3 that is on the market to try out, as it might be significantly cheaper than importing an ET5 (T.B.C.), plus it is only 1/2 hour drive away. At least that's the current thinking over a glass of red (ok, perhaps more than one), but nothing is ruled out.

Sometimes I think I think too much. Others have questioned why I want a preamp at all, given that I am currently only listening to one DAC source (albeit with 3 digital sources plugged into the DAC). So, I go around in a few circles, try the DAC direct to power amp again, decide it's lost it's sparkle, put the pre back in, then look at the cost of good quality combined DAC and Pre's (e.g Lampizator/DCS), rule that out again, then come back to researching ET5....or similar. It's a funny game we are in and enough rambling. I love the music, but it seems the quest for that little bit more is also part of the fun.

[admin]

Our foreign friends may also not be aware that we had Thanksgiving holiday last week and most businesses shut down for a few days so I would not be surprised if there is backlog of emails/telephone calls that CJ is trying to get through this week.

[Big Dog RJ]

Oh yes, that's certainly been a very debatable topic; preamp or no preamp. In fact, the best preamp is No preamp! If you can get away with it.

Going direct from source Output directly into power amp, that's the purest source signal you're ever going to get.
As a matter of speaking, that's exactly what CJ's CAV45 is all about, no preamp!

However, not all source signals are pure. Also output voltages vary and sometimes the attenuation directly controlled from the DACs built-in level control aren't very well designed. Most are simple enough but they can't do what a dedicated Linestage does.

Then there's the argument that a preamp is solely responsible for switching sources. Adding in a preamp adds colorations to the source signal, .and if only One source is used then why use a preamp... and the debate goes on.

Overall, in my entire audio experience, what I've realised is if you're planning on using a Linestage, make sure it's as neutral as possible and gets out of the way. A well designed Linestage will add the right amount of gain to drive those source signals as originally as possible and pass them onto the power amps unchanged. This is also one of the biggest factors where CJ preamps inverts phase, which is actually preserving phase after the inversion has already been done at all Inputs. (In other words, it preserves the inverted phase).

Not all preamps or Linestages in general are neutral, they will always add some color to the output signals. What I've also experienced is that when using phono-preamps, a very well designed phonostage will also provide just the right amount of gain to further boost those tiny signals from the cartridge. You don't want too low MV (milli volt) output carts or too high output, then same goes with the right phonostage. There has to be careful matching of parameters in order to get the gain structure perfect or closely matched from cartridge - phonostage - Linestage.

Once this gain structure is established, only then will you experience an effortless drive between power amps and the speakers. If the gain structure is not matched correctly, you will definitely hear a forced or distorted sound during playback. This is where people crank it up wanting more of everything but the "quality or finesse" never improves. It only gets louder or distorted, nothing is musical.

So yes, a well designed Linestage is important and definitely one that's a good match with your power amplifier. As far as I'm aware, CJ produces some of the finest Linestage gear money can buy. CJ preamps are superb! They carry out that main function of preamplification extremely well.

It's all good mate!
Cheers, RJ

[admin]

Agree with RJ. I've personally tried multiple times directly connecting source output to amps. These have been with digital sources which have the ability to control output volume. I've never been able to get the same quality as that with using a good preamp (like CJ). I can't explain why, perhaps it is how volume management is done digitally? That has been my experience.

[artoly]

I am picking up an Audio Research Ref 3 preamp tomorrow, having just won it on an auction. I know most here would favour the C-J ET5 option discussed above, but this is a lot easier than importing for me (being half an hour down the road, and lower cost per unit). I had to buy it together with an AR Reference 110 amplifier, so I'll be comparing that with my C-J Prem 350 for a while. I would be surprised if I liked the AR power amp more than I like the C-J (the 350 is awesome), but it will be fun to compare the AR valve option with the C-J solid state, both being from a similar era with a similar original price. The Ref 3 preamp comparison will also be interesting with my Naim 282.

This will be my first experience with valves. Eventually I will need to sell a preamp and power amp to recoup some funds, but I'll drag that out to enjoy them for a bit (if my wife will let me:)

Thanks again for your valued thoughts on this thread, which were very helpful.

[Big Dog RJ]

Ah, that's an excellent combination of ARC pre-power. Well done on the auction mate.

Yes, it will be an interesting comparison no doubt.
However, I wouldn't say one's better than the other... rather it's the combination that suits you the most. Your listening habits, music preferences, system gear & room set-up, are all dependent on your particular preferences. So once you've found that winning combination, just leave it!

Very wise to sell off the gear that you don't really require because after a few years of owning such gear, you don't want too much clutter around the house. The other problem trying to sell and retain decent value is quite hard. Used gear will always be in the power of the buyer, unless you don't want to budge... in which case you'll end up with a room full of stuff! And this is when the wifey gets cranky.

I know quite a number of people who just couldn't pass on their much loved audio gear, as a result they end up with not only a room full of stuff but a house full of clutter! They claim that they need this gear so badly that they interchange ever so often to cater to specific needs... but to me that entails two things:

1. They're slowly showing the hoarding syndrome.
2. Changing gear in & out often is not really listening to music, they're listening to the gear! Defeats the purpose of enjoying those fine tunes.

Do let us know how it all goes and on which pre-power combination you finally decided on.
Cheers matey, and enjoy those fine tunes!
RJ

[admin]

Congrats on the purchase. I think you will be very happy with the Ref 3. They make very solid gear and I know many people that have used Audio Research gear with their CJ stuff. It will be fun comparing the two amps as well. You can always sell one to offset the cost of the preamp and it gives you some extra funds for future upgrades.

[artoly]

Thanks RJ and admin. Several posts ago SolderSlinger raised the option of buying in USA, with C-J servicing and forwarding to NZ. Just to let you know, C-J did confirm their willingness to do this for me. However, that email arrived from them just a few hours after I purchased the AR kit. Therefore, I thanked them very much and suggested it might work on my next upgrade (which I definitely should not be thinking about for quite some time).